TOPIC: Discussion of Definitions Wild, Wild Sim, Woods Grown etc

I am posting this seperately hoping to give it a more appropriate home than the thread in which it started. Below is a copy past of my suggested definitions.

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\"Cultivated\" or \"Woods Cultivated\" to me is ginseng grown under shade -either artificial OR natural- where one uses common cultivational practices and fertilizers. Often this ginseng is harvested at four years of age, but occasionally 5 or 6 years.

\"Woods Grown\" is ginseng planted and grown under natural shade with some common cultivational practices such as tilling and shaping beds, weeding, sprays if necessary, calcium and phosphorous may be added, but NO fertilizer to enhance growth.

\"Wild Simulated\" is ginseng planted and grown under natural shade in natural ground. Seed must be planted 'no-til' that is making a hole and placing a seed or rootlet, or raking back leaves and broadcasting seed. But, after planting, the ginseng is left to fend for itself naturally for a minimum of seven years and preferred ten years or long before harvest for market. I think the addition of calcium and phosphporus would be ok here as long as it is top dressed only and not incorporated, as this is naturally occurring in most soils.

Personally, I plant 'woods grown' and 'wild sim' both. I do not sell the wild sim plants as rootlets, as wild sim in this state is considered by law to be 'wild' and falls under the harvest guidlines for wild. My 'woods grown' roots are only sprayed if necessary, and usually only for the first year or so to keep them alive to sell as rootstock. After that, they are normally left to their own devices and I must say, at three years, I cannot tell them apart from 'wild' roots. They look and taste the same to me. If someone were to plant these 'woods grown' rootlets and leave them, they would be for all the world 'wild' except for their method of origin.

This is my suggestion that we all agree on a set of definitions so we are not miss speaking referring to woods grown or woods cultivated interchangably.

I think our fundamental difference of opinion is to some extent reliant on the the question of nurture vs nature. I suggest that if any ginseng seed is planted and then grows as wild, it is wild. If I understand some of the other folks correctly, they are saying if a seed originally comes from a cultivated strain, no matter how it is planted or grows, it will always be cultivated.
If that is the issue, then I would have to honestly ask you where the cultivated strains of ginseng originated.

I think this discussion is a good thing. We need to express our ideas and sort them out. Anyone want to alter those definitions? Add your own?

My concern is for the customer, they do not want a root that looks like this or that. They want a root that grows in the rich soils of the old hardwood forest where the root absorbs energy, knowledge and curative powers of the old growth forest this takes many years the older the plant is the more power they believe the root has obtained. Eventually the root has enough power that it takes on the form of a human and gets up and runs away.If you catch one it has the power to cure everything.

Now we come along and by site alone imitate the root.

Look at all the vegatables we eat, what does the original plant look like. How does it taste in comparison to todays version. I'll take the old originals.

And finally I for one will not laugh in the face of my customers.I respect the beliefs of TCM and will not try to sell a facsimile. That would be a detriment to the whole industry.

guy

Well, I guess I understand what you are saying Guy. But, I guess the difference in what you and I are suggesting is a degree of intent. I do not take your comments personally and welcome your views and hope you continue to express them.

Speaking for myself personally, there is no intention to mislead anyone. I think the goal is to grow (match if you will) wild roots as closely as possible, not pass off a placebo. If we look at potatoes for example, there are many varieties and each has their own characteristics which make them better for certain purposes. Ginseng seems to have two major catagories, wild and cultivated. While many thousands of pounds of cultivated are sold to the Chinese market, traditional Chinese medicine prefers wild roots for reasons including those you suggest.

The rub comes when we start to look at wild simulated and woods grown roots. As I have defined them, they grow the same as do truly wild roots which had never had benefit of the hands of man. This is particularly true of wild simulated ginseng. The only difference there is the method of planting.

To add further confusion, is the suggestion that any root -regardless of age or appearance- which was 'born' of the seed of a field cultivated plant is condemded automatically to be cultivated itself.

I guess I just don't understand the distain for the presence of man's hand in a process, if the process otherwise is extensively the same. Wild simulated roots are left to their own devices as are truly wild roots and they grow in the same places, for often a longer period of time. How that makes them imposters I just don't understand.

Okay, We have pretty well determined wild simulated verses woodsgrown or cultivated.

My question is,What should wild simulated be worth after 15 years of fighting the elements on its own.

rootman

There was a post from awhile back where we discussed \"Wild or Cultivated\" and there was a link from Sylvan Ginseng that talked about seeds being planted back into the wild for so long that there is very little \"true wild ginseng\" left growing in the wild.

Here's a quote from Sylvan:

\"By bringing this fact to the surface, it will assuredly anger the many environmental groups that have directed their efforts to saving the \"wild\" ginseng. Whom, I might add, have my utmost respect and support in achieving their goals of protecting this beautiful native plant, but common sense must prevail. The call for the total ban on the digging of \"wild\" ginseng will do nothing more than accelerate the extirpation of the existing plants. I am of the belief that there is very little, if any, \"true\" wild ginseng remaining today, only old cultivated ginseng.\"

Cultivated seeds have been planted back into the wild for over 100 years. And then we exort thousands of pounds of so called wild roots to China and tell them they are wild roots?

Here's a quote from Paul Hsu(from last news letter), He is the largest exporter in the USA of wild and cultivated ginseng.

\"Federal officials have been looking into the ratio of the so-called \"real wild\" in what is harvested as wild in the past 4-6 years. Most of the \"Experts\"(including myself who serve on the American Herbal Product Association Subcommittee on wild ginseng)and dealers estimated that only 10%-30% of what is harvested, sold, and exported as wild belongs to \"real/true wild\"(defined as: non-human planted or tended ginseng). This is very alarming!!\"

If someone planted cultivated seeds into the wild, 10,20 or 30 years ago and left them alone to grow wild, and I come along and harvest those roots next year, they are wild roots. There is no way for me to be able to tell if the seeds were planted by someones hand or they just fell from the plant on their own accord.

I respect the customer that buys and consumes the roots. But it sounds like, only 10%-30% of what is exported out of the USA is True/Wild.

At this point, who can say \"what is what\"?

When all the \"so-called wild roots\", are all gathered together and exported in containers. Who can say that every one of those roots came from seeds that were not planted by human hands. Or that roots parents or grand parents were not planted by human hands.

I would say that if the root grows wild, it is wild even if it was started by a cultivated seed.

classicfur

Rootman,
It should be worth the same as a 15 year old \"Presumably Wild\" root. I challenge anyone to deny that it would be virtually impossible for anyone to recognize a difference.
Reason being there is no difference.
Latt

Classicfur,
Ditto!!!!!!!!!!!
Readers please go back and read the previous post by Classicfur. My post jumped his post when we both posted.
Latt

Latt wrote:

Rootman,
It should be worth the same as a 15 year old \"Presumably Wild\" root. I challenge anyone to deny that it would be virtually impossible for anyone to recognize a difference.
Reason being there is no difference.
Latt

I agree. And, a primary supporting reference would be the fact that even truly wild ginseng is not all worth the same. We had a discussion a few weeks ago about ginseng on the Tennessee side of a mountain being possibly worth less than ginseng on the North Carolina side of the same mountain. Now, the ginseng doesn't recognize the line of a map, but in different areas it grows differently and is therefore worth more or less based on its physical characteristics...not its true origin.

In my area, I seldom find ginseng growing that is over 40 years old at this point. I find a lot that is less than 10. I've been planting it for over ten years by burying seed of plants I've harvested. And, I ran into a guy once who told me he had been planting and transplanting ginseng in one of my hunting areas for over forty years, but he no longer even looks for it. At this point, I don't know if I've ever dug a plant there that had not in some manner been assisted by the hand of man. But, they all look extensively the same, and are all eagerly bought for the same price.

What is the purpose of trying to distinguish between woodsgorown and woods cultivated? to me they are the same thing.

2. What is the market for this kind of root?

I never see/hear any dealers say now paying top dollar for some quality woods grown/woods-cultivated that has only been fertilized a little bit, and not to much chemicals applied.

What i do hear from the dealers is this \"we are only paying top dollar for wild ginseng that is aged and is in tact, neck attached )long neck, ect..ect..

i have never once seen any dealer post a price for what they will pay for dried woods-grown/woods-cultivated.

K_duce wrote:

What is the purpose of trying to distinguish between woodsgorown and woods cultivated? to me they are the same thing.

2. What is the market for this kind of root?

I never see/hear any dealers say now paying top dollar for some quality woods grown/woods-cultivated that has only been fertilized a little bit, and not to much chemicals applied.

What i do hear from the dealers is this \"we are only paying top dollar for wild ginseng that is aged and is in tact, neck attached )long neck, ect..ect..

i have never once seen any dealer post a price for what they will pay for dried woods-grown/woods-cultivated.

Well that is the very reason I think we should define the differences. I think most people who hear the term \"woods grown\" think you are fertilizing to speed up the growth process. I suggest we term this \"woods cultivated\".

On the other hand, I think \"woods grown\" is slightly different than 'wild simulated' in that one can use fungicides when necessary, and can plant in prepared beds. However, no fertilizers at all should be applied to speed up the growth of the roots. This changes their appearance considerably.