TOPIC: Discussion of Definitions Wild, Wild Sim, Woods Grown etc

BCastle wrote:

K_duce wrote:

What is the purpose of trying to distinguish between woodsgorown and woods cultivated? to me they are the same thing.

2. What is the market for this kind of root?

I never see/hear any dealers say now paying top dollar for some quality woods grown/woods-cultivated that has only been fertilized a little bit, and not to much chemicals applied.

What i do hear from the dealers is this \"we are only paying top dollar for wild ginseng that is aged and is in tact, neck attached )long neck, ect..ect..

i have never once seen any dealer post a price for what they will pay for dried woods-grown/woods-cultivated.

Well that is the very reason I think we should define the differences. I think most people who hear the term \"woods grown\" think you are fertilizing to speed up the growth process. I suggest we term this \"woods cultivated\".

On the other hand, I think \"woods grown\" is slightly different than 'wild simulated' in that one can use fungicides when necessary, and can plant in prepared beds. However, no fertilizers at all should be applied to speed up the growth of the roots. This changes their appearance considerably.

I can't speak for others, but when I talk of woodsgrown I really am not thinking of fertilizers, but I am thinking of the use of fungicides. And with ginseng what do you consider fertilizers? From what limited knowledge I have on the subject of growing ginseng it seems that calcium is as important to ginseng as what nitrogen is to most of the plants in our gardens. If this is the case then the addition of gypsum (high in calcium) would have to be considered a fertilizer...
There really is no seperation in my mind between what you are calling woodsgrown or woods cultivated. I'm not putting down anyones method of growing ginseng just saying That there are many slight variations to how people grow it. Some guys add soil suplements (gypsum, bonemeal, and lime to name a few) to their wild simulated patches others do nothing but plant the seed, and others may even occasionally spray with fungicides. Now I would not consider it wild simulated if using fungicides, but some may be doing this. Others may be adding \"just a little\" fertilizer \"just the first year\" and still consider it wild sim. I would not, but others might. The point to all of this is that if you classify each variation of growing then there would be dozens if not hundreds of classifications.
Once again guys, I'm not putting down anyones method of growing just offering some thoughts of mine. I do have concerns of selling supposedly \"wild\" roots that are full of chemical toxins. If the consumer ever becomes very dissatisfied becaus of this then it wont matter whether it is wild, wild simulated or woodsgrown...prices will suffer.

At the end of the day, it will not matter how we as growers percieve our ginseng, call it whatever you want to. Ultimately the chinese will have the final say in what kind of ginseng they are getting or NOT getting from us. Right now in china, the economy is starting to slow, the powers to be have been flexing their might to appear as strong leaders and what better way to prove this than being a strong consumer watchdog for their people. Here is a article on just how mis-labeling products can affect the entire wild ginseng market.

www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-busine...t-up/article2204630/

several years ago the cultivated ginseng farmer felt the wrath of the chinese market, it is already established that they dont want ginseng full of toxins/chemicals.....what they want is a natural product, putting lipstick on a pig dosen't make for a prettier pig.

wanted to add this article as well..

www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-busine...seng/article2100597/

5,
that's my point. Different people have different impressions of what 'woods grown' is. I am just suggesting that we begin to standardize the term. I think woods grown allows for tilled beds, sprays when needed, gypsum and the like but nothing which would be commonly considered plant food (fertilizer) which would unnaturally speed the growth of the plant and its root.

I think anytime you start adding unnatural growth increasing products (fertilizer) you then have a form of cultivated whether under shade cloth or in the woods. That is the distinction I am trying to make. I don't think we need a term for every variation of planting practice, just major ones which will not clump roots grown in the woods without fertilizers with roots that are grown with fertilizers. I think we see that some folks are rather indifferent of the difference.

K,
I agree with your suggestion. However, what I am trying to say is that woods grown by the definition which I propose is not \"full of toxins/chemicals.\" After the second year, spraying is seldom necessary and the roots look very wild. By the time they are harvestable at about ten or more years, they will be virtually wild. I remember hearing someplace that even organic crops only need a certain period (one year sticks in my head) without chemical sprays. Now, I haven't looked that up to confirm it, but, it did sound odd to me at the time.

For my wild sim plantings, I do nothing but plant the seed. Period.

I know different areas have their own terms for what kind of ginseng is being grown. Some say it is woodsgrown if it is grown in the woods, whether it is tilled, fertilized, sprayed, etc. To me I think all that matters is how it looks when it is harvested, as long as its not full of chemicals.

I think all states need to have the same classifications on what kind of ginseng there is. I was told by our ginseng coordinator here in Mo. that there is no difference in wild and woodsgrown, as far as it being regulated the same. I know in other states it is diferent.

BCastle,
For a crop to be certified organic it cannot have any inorganics applied to the ground 3 years before harvest.
There are way too many variations for 2 terms to only describe them imo. I plant heavily in untilled but very loose soil and use fungicides as needed. By everyone's definition it is woodsgrown due to occasional spraying. Someone that would till their area would probably end up with the texture that I plant in. I consider it wild simulated with a little help along the way but we will see in the end .

Hillhopper

Hillhopper wrote:

BCastle,
For a crop to be certified organic it cannot have any inorganics applied to the ground 3 years before harvest.
There are way too many variations for 2 terms to only describe them imo. I plant heavily in untilled but very loose soil and use fungicides as needed. By everyone's definition it is woodsgrown due to occasional spraying. Someone that would till their area would probably end up with the texture that I plant in. I consider it wild simulated with a little help along the way but we will see in the end .

Hillhopper

Thanks Hillhopper, that makes more sense to me to be free of inorganics for three years prior to harvest. The stuff we use today doesn't stay in the ground or the plant as long as they used to from my understanding.

I am really not trying to complicate this...quite the contrary.

Wild sim, no help after planting -calcium and other organics ok at that time, older harvest, mature plants only as if 'truly wild'

Woods grown, NO fertilizers -fungicide sprays as needed, tilled beds ok, normally older harvest 7-10 years or more

Cultivated and Woods cultivated, Grow however you want, fertilizers ok, harvested anytime after 3 years.



In Ohio, we are a little at a disadvantage with the law. If we do nothing other than plant a seed (without tilling etc) the ginseng produced is protected as wild and subject to all harvest restrictions of wild.

But, if we till beds, spray, pull weeds or anything of the sort, the ginseng by law falls under the 'cultivated' label.

I just think it is better for us all if we get away from the term 'cultivated' to describe ginseng not grown with fertilizers in a natural setting.

I think i can see the points that Bcastle is trying to make. For ginseng sales i agree that there needs to be a distinction between how the product has been raised. His ideas seem simple enough.

On a another level, Guy's ideas about wild/wild sim are very interesting, and should make all of us take a real hard look at where we stand in the big picture and just what what we are doing here with ginseng.

The stories of yesteryear tell tales of the unmolested hardwood forest floors literally carpeted with the man root. Truly wild ginseng, propagated by nature only, growing without mans help or interference. Must of been a heck of a sight. Now most of us are \"woodsy\" guys spending a considerable amount of time in the sticks. Can you just imagine what the forest looked like centuries ago before farming, logging, homesteading and suchwhat?! I wonder just how rare the plant really was back then! I bet it wasnt as rare as today. Imagine the centuries of humus on the ground and the nutrients of a thousand seasons for it to grow in. After land clearing and farming used up or washed away the majority of the topsoil, what is left for the finnicky ginseng plant to thrive on? What have we had.... a 100 or so years in most areas of forest regrowth to recreate the topsoil needed? Hardly enough in my eyes.

Sorry, got to blabbing there.....

My point is, if mother nature can build it......man can certainly screw it up! MY lord! How did we turn a wolf like canine species into a weiner dog?!? How did pollution get so outta control that a river in Cleveland literally caught on fire?!? How did we engineer a chicken that is butcher ready in 90 days and has so little bones that most are crippled in that time?!? LOL! You gotta admit that we are a very intelligent creature, but historically we have used this for or own good and not always the good of the very resource that we are tinkering with.

So, i think wild should be wild. Untouched or ammended once planted Irregardless of the seed source. Naturally thinned as nature intended. As stated in previous posts, how can we possibly know what ginseng is Truly wild anymore anyway? I mean really, how many generations have to go by before a \"cultivated\" seed that is hand planted and left to the whims of nature (if it survives) becomes \"wild\" again? Ya know? If we put the weiner dog back in the wild and assume that he can somehow breed with a coyote, will there still be weiner dogs in 200 years? I highly doubt it. Mother natures evolutionary engine turns slowly but surely.

So if wild is wild then it is truly wild......hee hee hee......meaning, man or animal planted, if left to nature and it thrives then its wild in my eyes.

Wild simulated? If any ammendment that nature isnt providing is being added then i think the term \"wild\" should not be used any longer. If ginseng cannot thrive where we plant it then it shouldnt be sold or labeled as wild.

The rest i dont really have a say on because i dont sell seeds or roots, but Bcastles guidlines seem reasonable and simple to follow.

There have been some interesting threads and comments on the definition of ginseng the past few days. All I have to say is do we really want more rules, regulation, classification and interference by officials that are as confused as most are already. I know if I invest my money to plant \"Wild Simulated\" style, I want the right to harvest my roots in 10 years or more. Better yet, if a state (Any State) decides to put ginseng on the endangered species list and eliminate the digging of \"Presumably Wild\" ginseng, I still want to be able to harvest mine that I planted. Its a catch 22 and then some. If this were to happen then I would only be allowed to dig mine and sell it if I have the proper documentation that I planted it and it is not truly \"Presumably Wild\" ginseng. This is assuming they will not tell me I cannot dig what I planted now because I planted it in a \"Wild Simulated\" manner and it is now Wild.

So if I want to be able to sell what I planted, I want to be able to get the same price for my \"Wild Simulated\" roots as I would if it were \"Presumably Wild\" roots. I know it sounds like I want my cake and eat it too. But the more we push for rules, regulation, classifications and interference we will more than likely get it pertaining to ginseng seed we purchase to plant. I my opinion this is a bad thing, so we should be careful what we wish for and what we talk about.

If we plant ginseng seed in the woods, add some gypsum (A Natural Product) here and there if needed to mimic good soil that ginseng likes, then harvest it 10 to 15 years later we are not misleading anyone. This is no different in a \"Wild Simulated\" seed planted than a \"Presumably Wild\" ginseng seed growing in good calcium rich woodland soil.

We have not sprayed, pampered or tilled the \"Wild Simulated\" planting site. We are only going to harvest 10 to 20 % of what was originally planted. Why, because it is growing wild and we are willing to let 80 to 90% of it die to harvest only a small percentage of what was planted in the woods as \"Wild Simulated\". I for one do not want some official deciding now that I cannot reap the benefits of my investment of time and money. So we need to be careful.
Latt

Well said Latt

Great discussion.

Since it's left up to the state's to make these definitions, and let's face it, whether or not we want states or the feds to regulate ginseng is a moot point. If sustainable harvest and other factors that impact ginseng populations hadn't decreased over time we wouldn't even be discussing this. That's all water under the bridge.

Therefore, it's up to each of you to be responsible, do your own research, and give input to the powers that be for your area.

I challenge each of you to look at each states' ginseng statues and regulations and the definitions.

Kentucky definitions are broken out to match CITES, the governance of the ginseng trade. In the findings you'll see that in recent history ginseng is broken down, but not fully defined, into wild, wild-simulated and artificially propagated. Woodsgrown and cultivated both fall under artificially propagated.

Wild and wild-simulated is grouped together due to the industry's own issues. And should the industry keep on the \"well, it's all been touched by man anyways\" path, it's going to force bigger problems, IMHO.

Kentucky looked at all the states' definitions, where the findings have been headed towards, and what the industry looks headed to in the future to create these definitions. It's not easy to set standard definitions!

Here are Kentucky's definitions:

Section 1. Definitions. (1) \"Ginseng\" means American ginseng (Panax quinquefolius)
(a) \"Artificially Propagated\" means grown from seeds or rootlets that are either exempt from the provisions of the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora (CITES) or have been derived from cultivated parental stock, and grown as either
(1) \"Woodsgrown\" means grown under natural canopy and has been purposefully managed or
(2) \"Cultivated\" means grown under artificial shade and in tilled soil.
(b) \"Wild Simulated\" means ginseng grown from seed not as required in Section 3 of this administrative regulation, with minimal interference by humans, under natural canopy.
(c) \"Wild\" means growing with minimal inference by humans, under natural canopy in forest or woodlands. If seeds of wild ginseng are planted as required by Section 3 of this administrative regulation, those mature plants shall be considered wild.
(2) \"Dealer\" means any person or agent of an entity buying ginseng for resale or export.
(3) \"Certified ginseng\" means ginseng that has been issued an American Ginseng Export Certificate by the department or other governmental certifying organization.
(4) \"Uncertified ginseng\" means ginseng that has been harvested, but has not been issued a certificate for export.
(5) \"Harvest\" means to take any part of the ginseng plant while the plant is living.
(6) \"Purchase\" means to take possession of ginseng in exchange for cash, cash equivalents, or barter.
(7) \"Sell\" means to transfer possession of ginseng to another person or entity in exchange for cash, cash equivalents, or barter.
(8) \"Department\" means the Kentucky Department of Agriculture.
(9) \"Green ginseng\" means ginseng roots retaining moisture, not dried.
(10) \"Dry ginseng\" means ginseng roots that have been dried to remove moisture.
(11) \"Export\" means to transport, ship, carry, haul, take or otherwise move ginseng collected in Kentucky outside of Kentucky.

As for looking to the future, if you are planting seeds on your land, here are my recommendations:

* You should document what natural populations are on the property. Use a plat map and/or GPS coordinates
* Keep copies of seed purchases and planting information in with important papers with your land.
* Document how and what you did to prepare the soil in preparation for the seed or throughout growing the ginseng

These records could be key to your crop's future.