TOPIC: Questions on seed storage (prior to planting).

Considering what I have learned the past year or so on growing wild simulated one change I would like to make this year is to order seeds early (in bulk), have them delivered around first week in October.

This should help to make sure you don't get those bottom of the barrel seeds, or possibly green seeds if you order late in the year and seed supply is short.

It will also help (cost wise) to order in bulk - say 5 lbs or more.

My question is in relation to how to best store that bulk order of seeds until you get them all planted.

I know I can plant 5 pounds of seed, but I do work alone and have a full time job and lots of other responsibilities (family, church, etc) and well it will take me a while to get 5 pounds planted by myself.

Using my double rake and scatter method it takes me about 1 hour to plant a 5x50 (250 sf) bed and that is around 1000 - 1200 seeds.

At 7000 seeds per pound that works out to around 6 hours to get a pound planted.

For you guys that can plant much faster than that - would appreciate any tips on how to speed up the planting process.

Anyway - if I did get 5 pounds of seed in, and spent most of the day on Saturday planting (say 6 hours) and then the next week I got to plant several evenings (after work) I could probably get 2 pounds of that planted within a week of my seed arriving.

That leaves me 3 pounds more seed that I have had for a week or more in storage and it is going to take me at least a couple more weeks to get that all planted.

I can tell you this, last year when I got seeds in, I sure felt pressured to get them planted asap. If I get 5 pounds of seed in all at one time I would feel the same way - need to bust my butt to get them planted asap.

I will be 50 years old this September and would much rather do away with that kind of stress over getting seeds planted and just take my time and plant them as I have time.

But also don't want to worry with the method I am using to store them causing them to go bad.

What I did last year was order in small batches, 1 pound or 1/2 pound and then plant that over a week or two (max - storing them in the fridge and keeping them moist) until planted.

I also found that my soil/planting conditions are much better in December and January (especially after a snow and melt) than they are in October/November (late dry spells, hard ground).

Anyway - to the main question on this post.

Do any of you guys order and get in bulk seed and then instead of storing them in the fridge - put them back in the ground in stratification bags or containers ?

If that works well - I think that would work for me.

I could get in 5 or possibly even 10 pounds of seed, and split it up into 1 pounds per stratification bag and burry them, then I can pull them back up (one bag at a time) and plant them over the entire fall/winter span.

Also a small note on treating seeds.
Last fall I got a half pound of seed in from hardwood ginseng and at that point I did not know that he treated his seeds. Later on found out that he does treat them when he brings them up from stratification box, but with only a small % of clorox solution (think he said something like 1-2%).
Several seeds were cracked and smiling.

I treated them with 10% clorox solution (just as Scotts book recommends). I actually did 10 cups water, 1 cup clorox bleach, so just a bit below 10% solution.

Below is a pic of one of those beds that I treated with that clorox solution (high % like scott recommends).

Had excellent germination out of all of those seeds.



So I can definately say that it does not hurt seeds to treat with higher % clorox solution (as Scotts book recommends in the 10% range) and in my case they were actually treated twice, once by Mike at hardwoodginsendg and once by me.

Thanks

TNhunter

TN,
I would say this to some of your questions. I think everyone plants with similar ways with some variances. What I like about this forum is you can pick up some tips from others and implement them into how we all plant.

I picked up a couple of tips from you and have made them part of how I plant now. Especially the step of pulling back some soil after the leaves are raked off. Then I cast the seed and when I am done I rake the loose soil back over top the seed bed and walk the beds taking those little \"Duck\" steps very similar to how you walk the beds. Then I rake the leaves back on. I know you walk the beds after you rake the leaves back on. Either way will work I am sure.

I know Guy made mention on the forum about treating seeds and I hope he could post this again if he reads this.

As far as storing seeds it is important to get them in the ground as soon as possible. But I do not think a week or two in the frig will make that much difference. I think the constant temp of the cool frig is OK for seeds for a while but if it is months in the frig verses weeks it will decrease the germination. Getting seed in the ground exposes seeds to varying temps and this is what makes the seeds germinate well in the spring.

One grower recently told me that some will even toss the seeds in the freezer and alternate them taking them in and out from freezer to frig until they are planted. I have never tried this but I am convinced that a seed laying 1/4 inch below the soil is going to freeze and this appears to be good for germination in the spring.

As far as some planting faster than others is still a mystery to me somewhat. I will be 50 this September as well. I stay fairly active and lift weights, golf, ride bikes, and work in the yard. But a good day planting still kicks me in the butt.

I have said this before, I consider myself a pretty good leaf raker. I think the key to planting a bit faster is to work in the woods when at all possible when the leaves are dry.
Raking wet leaves will slow the process down by 50% in my opinion. I also try to be as efficient as possible. This means I try to not rake leaves in a way where I have to move big piles of them if I do not have to.

For example if I am making a 5 foot wide bed I do not pull all 5 feet of the leaves to one side. It is easier to pull half to the right side and then at the end of the row turn around and go back down the bed and rake the other half to the other side of the bed. Moving leaves this way keeps you moving faster without having a lot of leaf weight under the rake. You end up with the same 5 foot wide planting bed with leaves on both sides verses just one side. This is especially helpful when the leaves are moist or wet. It also makes it nice when recovering the beds with leaves.

I am still convinced it is possible to use a tiller to bust up the top 1/2 to 1 inch of soil if one is planting a lot of seed. Tilling the top 1/2 to 1 inch of soil is not going to give the roots a woods cultivated look. If the ground is slightly tilled and the seeds are planted 1/4 to 1/2 inch below the soil surface they are going to hit the hard soil when they grow and do what they do when planted \"Wild Simulated\" style.

Getting the seeds 1/4 to 1/2 an inch below the surface of the soil is the key for high germination. I know I used to just rake the leaves back sow the seed and rake the leaves back on. This method does not work as well as getting the seed below the surface of the soil then walking the beds, it's just that simple.

So I think if one is planting \"Wild Simulated\" style equipment can be used to assist when planting larger quantities of seed without jeopardizing the notion of getting \"Wild Simulated\" looking roots.

Would it not be possible to go into a woods using a heavy duty mower and mulch all the leaves in a 5 foot strip making two passes. Till the soil 1/2 to 1 inch deep with a tiller, sow the seeds by hand or using a seeder, rake the seeds in or cover with 1/4 to 1/2 inch of soil, then cover back up with the mulched leaves, then roll the planting bed with a heavy duty mower pulling a water filled roller much like the ones used on a lawn?

All of this may sound like a far cry to planting \"Wild Simulated? style to some of you. However, if one is planting multiple pounds why not use what we have as long as the end result is \"Wild Simulated\" looking roots. I know \"Wild Simulated\" sure does not sound like the notion of using machines to do much of the work. But it may be a good idea to work smarter than harder and I am considering doing all of what I have stated this coming fall when I plant a large quantity of seeds.

I am no expert so anyone reading this please keep this in mind. This is just my opinion and what I am considering, so do with it what you may.
Latt

Last year when i got my seeds from Ozark Mtn in september work was extremly busy, so i didn't get to plant in September as i had wished. So i put a dish towel around the bag of seeds for a litlle extra warmth because even turned down my fridge is extremely cold. But to make a long story short i planted throughout the season as time would let me all the way till i planted the rest of the seeds on New years eve. All i done was every two to three days would take the bag out and add a little water to the seeds and just run my hand through them to let them air out. And i was skeptical of this where they stayed in the fridge so long but i did have excellent germination with the seeds as i always do with Dennis seeds.

Latt,

I will keep your, rake half one way and half the other suggestion in mind when planting next year. Shorter strokes moving less leaves/top soil sounds like a good idea (where possible). I do like to plant along old down logs so in cases like that you can only rake one direction.

My preferred planting locations (where companion plants and wild seng is growing) are for the most part too steep to run something like a lawn mower unless perhaps I had something that could be run from a 4 wheel drive atv and I do think they make equipment like that. I don't own anything like that so that would be a costly addition equipment wise.

Here is a cut from the email that Mike at hardwoodginseng sent me:

\"have someone walk in front of you and you have a tiller going and just throw the seeds in front of the tiller and till a 1\" to 2\" debth.\"

Sounds like a method that he may be using or perhaps is considering using (I did not ask). He was suggesting that as a method to get a lot of land planted.

I used to have a 8 hp rear tine tiller that had some big tractor tread type wheels on it and it would till up a 24\" width. It also had a till depth adjustment bar so you could set it to only go 1-2\" deep. I think it would have worked OK on fairly steep hillsides but I sold it a couple years ago - it was about worn out at the time - I had used it for 15 years gardening.

I will probably just stick to rake/scatter and continue that double rake method.

When I had trouble with the Hardings seed germinating and went to try and find some of the seeds, they were actually quite hard to find because they were fairly deep in the soil. I would say 1/2 to 3/4\" deep is where I found the 4 that I did find. That is one thing I like about the double rake method you do get them down under the top soil some.

Hillbilly - when I kept seed in the firdge - I did very similar to you. I actually put my seed in a larger zip lock bag that I had poked holes in (say every 1/4 to 1/2\") I had it just full of holes. I float tested them before putting them in the bag so they were fairly wet from that. I wrapped them in a dry towell and put them in a drawer in the fridge (for lettuce and stuff like that) and checked them every day or two. When I found that towell did not have any moisture in it, I sould wet the towell and put it back around the seed bag (over night) then the next morning there would be moisture inside the bag with the seeds. I took the wet towell off and put another dry one on for a couple days.

I never actually put water in the bag with my seeds, but let it sort of wick in from the outside. I did stir up the seeds daily.

Glad to hear you had good luck keeping them in the fridge that long - that makes me feel a little better about storing some past a couple weeks in the fridge.

What I may do this year is order 5 lbs, and keep a couple pounds in the fridge until I can get that planted, and put the other 3 pounds in stratification bags and burry them and pull those up later in the winter for planting.

That should work.

Thanks

TNhunter

TNhunter

On the subject of storing seeds for a longer period of time. I think that the seeds require a period of 8-9 month of cold storage that you would not achieve by burying them in the warmer climate soil that you have. Unless perhaps if you buried them in a shallow pit. The deeper you bury them the warmer temp they will be stored at.

According to this article it seems that your best bet would be to store them in a refrigerator.

Check out table #1

www.nativeplantnetwork.org/Content/Articles/3-2NPJ109-111.pdf

And I do think getting your seeds earlier is better than waiting after the first of the year.

Then again I have Only recieved and planted seeds in the fall time.

Hope this helps.

TNhunter

One I ment to point out in that article.

\"Uncontrolled fluctuating
temperature and moisture levels,
and the presence of pathogenic
organisms in the seed
box cause seeds to sprout prematurely,
rot, dry out, or be
delayed in germination by up
to 2 y after seeding, with
severely reduced germination
rates.\"

classicfur

Classicfur,

I read that article - nice pic of the seed sprouting.

The seeds I would be buying would already be stratified and ready for planting. As the article said they were pulled up out of the seed providers stratification container in Aug or September.

Then they would be shipped to me and I would like to have them delivered around 2nd week of October (after wild seng hunting is mostly done).

At that point I would be ready to start planting.

I don't see a big difference between planting seeds (using my double rake and scatter method) and storing seeds in the ground (in a nice cool moist place with good drainage - basically the same place I have some wild seng growing).

I could dig a trench about 1' deep and fill that trench with a combination of woods leaf mulch and sand and then put my 3 pounds of seed in individual 1 pound bags filled with a mix of sand and leaf mulch) in that trench and cover good with sand and leaf mulch and them mluch the top good with leaves.

Can't see that being any worse (but possibly better) than actually being planted 1/2\" to 3/4\" deep using my double rake and scatter method.

As far as completing the stratification process, they would actually get the same treatment weather/temp/moisture wise as what I actually have planted in October/November - except they would be a bit deeper in the ground so less likely to dry out or get hardly as warm.

Anyway - I can't really see that the seeds I put away in stratification bags as being any worse off than the ones I have actually planted in October/November.

What big difference do you see ?

Thanks

TNhunter

TNhunter

As you know it takes 18-22 months of stratification before the seeds start to germinate in the spring. By the time that seed suppliers pull the seeds from \"their Own\" stratification box(say Sept or Oct), at that time the seeds have only been stratified for about 12 months.They are not completly statified.

The final stage of stratificatoin happens while the seeds are sitting in the ground(after planting), for another 6-10 months. By spring time the seeds are then completly sratified(total of 18-22 months). That article talkes about the last months as being \"Cold Storage\". It shows that if the last 9 months, the seeds are kept at 34-36 degrees then they had the highest germination rate 80%.

I would think that a refrigerator would keep your seeds closer to that temp(34-36 degrees) than putting it into your warmer type soil for storage.

classicfur

Tnhunter

I think that last post does'nt really answer your question about difference of planting the seeds or stratifying in the ground for a longer period of time.

As fall and winter brings cooler air temps, it slowly cools down the soil temps. As the air starts cooling the surface of the soil, the soil down about a foot or so is warmer than the surface soil which is starting to be close to the same as the air temps.

In far northern areas, as the air starts to reach below freezing point, then the surface soil starts to freeze, but the soil further down is warmer than the surface soil and not frozen. After the soil surface is frozen, the further you go down into the soil, the warmer or higher the temp is above freezing. In the middle of winter, the warmest soil in found below the frozen surface soil.

Seeds that are planted in the early fall will be colder than seeds that are burried in a stratification box 1 1/2 ft deep in the ground. And as the ground freezes the seeds that were planted 1/2\" or so in the ground, the strat box thats deeper in the ground will not be frozen.

I guess all I'm saying is that there is a difference in the temps of the soil between the two.

classicfur

Classicfur,

I agree there would be a slight difference in soil temps and how much that temp varies and also how much the moisture varies in planted seeds vs seed stored in a stratification box.

No doubt the temp and mositure would be more consistent in the stratification box, but it would still vary some (warmer on warm sunny days, colder on cold nights).

To me that seems more natural than what they would have being stored in a fridge at a fairly constant temp - but the risk I see with storing in the fridge is you have to monitor the mositure and do your best to keep that right (which is somewhat guess work) and if you don't stay on top of that you could sure mess it up.

The shallower you put the stratification box the more the seeds put there will be subject to the same temps, moisture as planted seeds. I don't see why you would have to go 1.5'deep as long as you mulched it real good (say 8-10\" of leaves on top) and only put them 8\" or so deep.

I may try the stratification box thing with 1 lb of seed this fall and just see how it does.


TNhunter