TOPIC: Emergence update from Maine

While some of the ground cover I have is of the undesirable type, multi floral rose and poison oak it is mostly companion plants. My trillium, mayapple, maidenhair fern, etc is VERY thick. I wont even plant near the patches of the fern, i know you want competition but as thick as it is it would block out seedlings.

In my view, \"weeds\" needs defining. I've viewing any intrusion of plants within my beds as a \"weed\".

when I was looking this past weekend, I found one bed that had a whole lot of ferns growing there, that were invisible when we planted the 3 yr old rootlets this past march. I plan on digging them up and taking them to my home for transplanting at my home.

Otherwise, there are lots of rhododendron suckers from cutting the larger established plants., as well as seedlings from maples and oaks. NeXt month, I'll have to cut back all that stuff.

When I was on that companion plant hike with Dr. Persons last weekend we walked by a hillside that was just covered with companion plants. Really thick black cohosh and stinging nettles, among many others. Like classicfur mentioned, it was the kind of place where you would think the thick ground cover meant there was too much light. To the contrary, Dr Persons said it was a good site. A site that is growing thick companion plants is going to grow good ginseng (lots of woody undergrowth would be a different story). I asked him if he would spray it prior to planting, and he said that you could and knew people that have done it with success, but that he personally would try planting without spraying. I was actually really surprised because this stuff was thick. His point was that as long as the plants survive, the competition doesn't matter much. If the ginseng grows slower it gets a better price, and whether it takes 9 years or 15 years, its still profitable.

vafiddler

I guess I;m not sure of what you mean when you said:

\"a hillside that was just covered with companion plants. Really thick black cohosh and stinging nettles, among many others.\"

When I think of that much ground cover and really thich cohosh, I can't help but think that baby ginseng would be deprived of nutrients and especially sunlight. Which would caouse stunted growth.

Here's what Persons had to say from his book. pg 69

\"Ginseng has evolved to compete successfully with other woodland plants, and there is usually no reason to clear off any of the forest floor greenery before planting. Indeed, having other plants intermixed with the ginseng is highly desirable, as they inhibit the spread of disease, and their competition adds to the wild herbaceous undergrowth, even under deep harwood shade, formed a complete ground cover that was so dense during the growing season that it was questionable whether a young ginseng seedling could handle the copetition for water and nutrients and would seem certain to be deprived of sufficient sunlight.\"

How you said that \"a hillside that was just covered with companion plants. Really thick black cohosh and stinging nettles, among many others.\" It sounds to me like the hill was too thick to grow seng, like what Scott said in the bottom of that. paragraph.

Perhaps your idea of thick and covered is different than how I think of it.

But I think all of us want roots that can be harvested in 7-10 years instead of 15 years.

I've waited 7 yrs already and would hate to think of waiting 8 more years to harvest. And yes you would make a profit either way, but why grow it in a setting that would take 15 years when you can grow high quality seng in 10.

Just a thought

classicfur

Honestly, I was surprised too. And waiting 15 years instead of 9 or 10 doesn't add much comfort. Of course, \"really thick\" is completely subjective so we may just be describing different things. I wish I had some pictures.

I think the key variable here is light, as opposed to competition for nutrients or water. Everything I read and hear indicates that most nutrients aren't limiting, and I think the extra groundcover will tend to increase soil moisture retention instead of reducing it. The site we visited had a lot of light, which is probably why there was so much groundcover in the first place. With that kind of light, perhaps the shading from the groundcover wasn't of too much concern. But who knows...

I personally have avoided planting in sites with lots of ground cover. I did try one site that had tons of mayapple and sweet cicely and got very poor germination rates. Maybe herbicide there would be in order.

But the main point that I was trying to make was that when picking test sites, I usually try to find places where there is fairly sparse ground cover, thinking that would indicate optimum shade. As a result of the trip, however, I'm now thinking the opposite. That good groundcover from companion plants indicates optimum conditions. And that places without good groundcover may be too shady or too dry.

vafiddler

I guess my plants that are shown on this thread along with four and five year olds that are doing great, are disagreeing with your comment of: \"That good groundcover from companion plants indicates optimum conditions. And that places without good groundcover may be too shady or too dry.

All these plants are growing in an area with little ground cover. Just a few weeds and a mix of companion plants. Most the places in the far north that are Sugar Maple dominate, have little ground cover.

Thanks for the info!

classicfur

These are some great thoughts fellas. I have 2 and 3 year old ginseng that is doing great in a woods that only has mayapple, jack-in-the-pulpit and ferns. Other than that there is an occasional Spice Bush tree. It is doing very well but the ground tends to get dry later on in the summer but the ginseng is easy to see and doing well. Then my new spot that is doing well is full of ferns, mayapple, jack-in-the-pulpit to name a few. This woods is full of other ground cover to that looks like stringy cotton candy. The canopy provides about 75 % Shade too. The soil is very dark and loamy with high organic matter and high calcium levels. But it is thick as heck in there. The ginseng is doing fine thou. So these two spots couldn't look any more different and both are doing well for the moment. The new woods and ginseng beds still has to prove itself but it looks promising.

Here is a good Plant ID link if anyone is interested for Ohio. I am sure most of these grow in other Northern states but not too sure which ones do not.

nativeplantsocietyneohio.org/identifying.htm#Late_Spring

Thanks,
Latt

Latt

Thats a good point. I think you can have two opposite extremes in ground cover and have two great places for growing seng.

vafiddler

I think that if a persons critera for a great planting area is, looking for either thick ground cover or the other extreme, very little ground cover. Then you are probably passing up site that woulg probably grow great seng.

There's alot of thought that goes into choosing a good planting site other than ground cover. Like, Dominant trees, exposure, slope, soil and site surface, understory plants and security. These are all listed in Persons' book pg98,99 Visual site assessment.

I guess we need to be open minded as we look at propective sites. And there is no perfect site!

classicfur

Classicfur,
I agree. If there is such a thing as a perfect site I have only found it once. Then a home was built smack dab in the middle of that woods. Never found a woods like it since. If they are out there they are few and far between.
Latt

I have one spot on my place that I planted that when I checked it out last summer it was just thick with poison ivy.

The hillside faced north/east and got very good morning sun but then was shaded nicely the rest of the day. There were lots of companion plants growing in there too, ferns, including maiden hair, may apple, bainberry, etc. There is also wild seng growing just down the hollow a bit from that spot.

Last summer I put the round up to it and sprayed it real good and waited 3 weeks and came back and sprayed it agian. I focused on the poision ivy and tried to leave the rest (best I could).

I planted it this past fall/winter and the seedlings are doing great and there are very few weeds in the beds and the poison ivy is gone (for now at least). I hope it don't come back.

I HATE poison Ivy and can't say I would have sprayed that area except for the thick presence of it.

That is one thing that I would definately call a \"weed\" to my seng beds. Anything that really bothers (itches like heck) the grower - most certinaly qualifies as a weed - even if it can be called a companion plant

TNhunter