TOPIC: Crickets Chirping* * *

I like your point too, Latt. I think we were posting at about the same time..... on that last one.

Another thing that is incredibly relative: Personal ethics. got a high set of them? or a low set of them? or somewhere inbetween? Only you know this, for sure. Are you after the top revenue you can get? Are we satisified with what things \"might\" be worth?

If I grow a pound of dried root, and sell it with a seemingly wild appearance to a buyer, and with full disclosure tell him that I have grown this in a woods-grown/wild sim way... how is that guy going to sell it? After it leaves my hands, even tho I have lived fully into my ethics, I have no controll when the buyer sells it as wild. In fact I have no idea how he represents my pound of dried root.

Regulation, I think will not satisify these concerns. Hyper-regulation might... however how is that acheived? How does one regulate personal ethics?

Whitjr,
I am afraid that the hyper-regulations and personal ethics laws will happen in the future when they realize that poachers and thieves and the unethical are breaking the laws we have now. If a law is not working then pass another stricter one right? Oh and under fund the entity in charge of enforcement just like with the first law right?
Since we're talking laws, isnt part of the KY law In conflict with the stated purpose if the law itself? How does the seed within 50 feet of its mother rule help preserve and expand ginseng when the vast majority I find are growing in very unhospitable ground. Some Ive been watching hasnt seeded in 5 years. It will take me 150 years just to finally get a seed planted in prime ginseng ground.
I really wish the property that I paid for was really mine so I could help increase ginseng without being a criminal. And if I want to give seed to a neighbor 2 miles down the road why is that criminal?
Does your state law have any parts you think should be changed?

Yep, it's amazing how many people seem to think the perfect fix for laws that don't work is even more laws that don't work. On top of which all the studies I've read on the subject point out how current harvesting laws in most states are detrimental to ginseng propagation.

In general it's been found laws that are enacted to protect species actually often result in the opposite. Lets use a random example, like maybe rhinos. It's illegal to kill or trade rhinos or in goods from rhinos because people were killing them just for their horn. Seems logical to make it illegal right? Well the effect is that rhino horn prices go way up, increasing the incentive for people to kill them. On top of which the law prohibits the law abiding people who might want to breed and raise rhinos for their horns and meat from buying and dealing with rhino products. If people were able to trade in the products they could raise them in a sustainable way like buffalo today, which almost went extinct. There are 15000 buffalo considered wild on public lands, yet there are 500,000 on private lands that don't get counted because they are in private hands. What we need is fewer regulations not more.

I\"m not disagreeing with most of you at all.

My biggest concern right now is that (using my home state of Ohio as example) the definitions allow for only wild or cultivated root. Nothing in between. The ownership of wild plants and animals reside with the state for the benefit of the citizens of the state by law. This sets up a situation whereby a guy or gal who plants a pound of seed in wild simulated fashion loses ownership of his or her investment to the state at the moment the seed is planted. State law considers wild sim to be \"wild\". Therefore, it is subject to all the restrictions of a native wild plant and can only be harvested during the set season and only after producing 3 prongs.

--What happens if you have to move in early August? You can't take your wild sim with you. You may lose it.

I am not really suggesting a change in the way the state certifies ginseng (wild or cultivated) but that they provide definitions which recognize at the very least wild simulated as a personal property which belongs to the grower who sowed it, with proper documentation of course (seed purchase receipts etc).


Whitjr,
I agree with you generally. And yes, I may be setting the bar a little high on the wild sim. However, think of it this way, what is wild simulated? It is growing ginseng as close to naturally occurring ginseng as possible. Right? You don't add any type of growth enhancers to patches of wild ginseng do you? So, if we are trying to replicate...simulate....wild ginseng, why would we do this with our wild sim?

As I said, I'm not certain where that line rightfully should be, and have considered it for years. However, I must say that I am leaning toward wild simulated being planting a seed or rootlet and doing nothing else what so ever.

Keep in mind, most of what you said about the market is pretty close. There are several characteristics about what is often called \"woods grown\" ginseng that are very common and can be used to identify it from true wild ginseng. One is the small fiber roots. There is more small hair roots on the average lot which is grown than that which is wild. One source puts it at about 12-14% fiber in the lot as opposed to about 7% for wild. Another is the age of the roots. If you bring me 100 roots all with five neck scars...I say you dug a patch. This is one of the reasons I suggest you reseed (with a jab seeder or one similar to the one I manufacture)your wild sim patches in a couple years. That way you will have mixed age classes as the plants start to mature. Another is the thickness of the necks. I have to tell you folks....I\"ve had some VERY GOOD ginseng thrown out by my buyers over the years because the thickness of the necks made them believe it was woods grown or cultivated. Which leads me to my point...why do anything which might cause you to get less for your final product? Adding growth enhancers is a shortcut to big ginseng. But the biggest ginseng commonly seen in as little as 3-4 years is farm cultivated. Sure they grow a lot of big ginseng quick. But, their price per pound isn't even in the same realm.

I think the best thing to do is to plant the seed in a good spot, and wait until they are at least 10 years old to even think about harvesting...and even then harvest only the biggest and the best roots which have reached full maturity and substantial large size.

I think from a governments stand point, it doesn't care what is woods grown,wild simulated or cultivated. To protect and regulate it needs to know what is naturally occurring and what isn't. In my opinion, if we walk ten miles into the wilderness and find a plant with a wad of berries and plant them then the emerging seedlings are not naturally occurring plants. This ideology thing of what it is and what it isn't hurts my brain to try and sort it out. I think most officials who would be faced with this argument would be like \" So, did you or did you not plant this? You did. OK, it's cultivated. End of discussion.\" Most, as are we seem to be looking for definitions to classify our method from a marketing aspect because we don't want it to sound like cheap cultivated root since in the market, \"cultivated\" is at the bottom of the ladder. That is where the whole wild simulated thing comes into play. I guarantee you one thing, when it hits Chinese soil it doesn't have all these classifications.

I can tell you exactly what I'm doing. I am \"cultivating\" a root to mimic wild root. I respect and appreciate wild ginseng as much as anyone but, if I decide to dig what I have grown in May then that is what I will do. I will accept or reject the sale based on my roots appearance.

This tire has spun in the same rut for years. I honestly do not think more strict regulations make a difference anyway. The people who it needs to be guarded from are going to do it regardless. More restrictions and more bans will only make it worth more their while with higher prices. Keeping things such as new restrictions and sky rocketing prices off the morning news wouldn't hurt.

Hillhopper

Wild simulated? Simulate, to copy as close to the original product as possible.
I really agree with Brad on the different definitions.
If we stray to far from woods grown to wild, I'm afraid anything as hillhopper stated will be considered cultivated or do we put another category {truly wild simulated or the virtually wild} but then will this line be crossed?
What do I have growing? To be honest a little bit of everything.

What I fear the most is the high prices. Will this create more theft and poaching to the point that it kills the goose that lays the golden egg?
Don't get me wrong I've enjoyed the prices this year also but I always fear it will impact the population of our ginseng.

rootman

wow. I had this really long response all typed in here, and hit the \"preview\" button on the forum, and my response blipped out to never-never land. Sucked into cyberspace. gone gone gone. Dang-it!

Will attempt to recreate it now. Ummm, lets see....

I had typed a a long discussion about the CITES Head-hurtin' International Regs and their effects on our growing. Also, I I had a decent discussion about the 1st Annual International Ginseng Synposium from last year, here in NC. I'll have to think about that for awhile and write more later when I'm not so pissed-off at my keyboard.

Here's one thing I wrote.... Not to put too fine a point on it, however the Cambridge Dictionary def of \"Simulate\" is:

\"English definition of “simulate”
simulate/Èsjm·jYÌlejt/ v [T] › to create conditions or processes similar to something that exists:\"

It does not define it as copy exactly. However to go on....



Brad- Thanks for bring the knowledge-base to this forum. some of theose details yuou posted i'm sure will be a asset to others here. And, No, I don't add growth-enhancers, just organic soil additives to adjust pH. I don't use herbicides or fungicides either. good question, tho.

One of the things that occurs to me is that we can piss and moan about governmental regs all we want, amongst ourselves, but the C.I.T.E.S International Regulation is already there, and has a pervasive influence on our goings on. Our US Forest Service has intentions to comply with something like it... We as a group need to do something like as Brad has suggusted in the past; and have something like a association that will assist us in keeping what we got -so to speak.

More later.

'Course the above post by me is no-where near what I wanted to say in it. I had tied my points together and putting that all back together requires a stream of consciousness that is totally gone now. oh, well... you guys can start laughing at me any time....

Hill,
I think you are correct in that many of the administrative folks really couldn’t care less about the actual condition of ginseng. However, there are those who truly do care (our own poster KYginseng comes to mind). I think this is the reason two or three things need to happen.

First, administrative folks need something tangible with which to justify their decisions. This means we as growers and diggers need to add to the body of scientific knowledge about ginseng. We all remember the guy who said on the TV program that ginseng will be extinct in 20 or 30 years. This kind of stuff cannot be allowed to stand unchallenged. It can only be challenged through scholarly research and writings or expert testimony. The growers / diggers association is one mechanism by which we can make this happen.

Secondly, right now, (using Ohio as the example) wild sim -only planting the seed or root- is considered the same as truly wild. I'm ok with that except for the inequity to the grower who invested time and money into the seed/rootlets and planted them. Anything other than that is considered to be cultivated under our legal definitions. If ginseng is certified as cultivated, its market value drops to the price of farm raised cultivated root. I could also mention that I've had visiting international buyers try to buy uncertified woods grown ginseng out of my hands at top wild market dollar based on the size and appearance. So, right now the descriptions we hear –wild, wild simulated, virtually wild, woods grown, woods cultivated, cultivated, etc.,- are in a state of flux and there is no standard for what to expect with each descriptive label. I might take that woods grown mentioned above that the guy wanted to buy at top wild price, and someone else might hear “woods grown” and envision the boney green root or something completely intensely cultivated under natural shade which for all intents and purposes might as well come out of a shade garden on a ginseng farm. I just think we need to have some standard by which the market can rely upon.

And third, I truly believe if we can get that sort of thing to happen, the market will come to trust our products by description more than it does now. Currently, we all know that ginseng someone might pay $1000/lb for might fall to $600/lb if they hear it described as “wild simulated”, or even farther if “woods grown” is offered to label the growing method. Obviously, this will take dedication and integrity on the part of the growers also.

Now, I am not at all one for increasing regulations and enhancing governmental intervention in our daily lives at ANY level. That said, the definitions I propose would simply set a standard –nothing more, nothing less. By setting this standard we can do a couple things. First and foremost, we recognize there are classifications and growing methods between wild and cultivated. Then, we can hopefully allow wild simulated to continue to be certified and sold as wild, yet agree that it is personal property. This would require no additional oversight or intrusion, only the requirement that we maintain reasonable records of our wild simulated plantings for evidentiary purposes if they are ever required.

Whitjr,
I feel your pain. This is why I do my school postings and long posts like this one on MS Word and then copy them to the forums

Oh…and thank you for the kind words.

Possibly if a private registration were inacted for growers of this sort then it could be stamped wild but excluded in the end when the tallies are added up. Could be the answer but there will be underreporting and all that kinda thing, which is going to happen regardless. But oh look out! If that happens, guess what's next.... You can bet your sweet rear end that permits, growing fees and some type of taxation will soon follow!

Im just going to play it cool in the woods and do my own thing while the world rolls on by. If it ever comes to the point that I need documentation......Well, my posts on this forum,pictures and receipts should do it if anything will.

Hillhopper