TOPIC: Ginseng Genetics

Can someone please help?

We all have expressed our opinions on the importance of genetics in growing ginseng. Some believe as I do that if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck and tastes like a duck it must be a duck. However, others tell me that regardless of how it looks, sounds or tastes, if the genetic markers are different, it will never ever be a duck.

I can grow plants. I can conduct research and even somewhat scientific experiments. However, I do not have a strong background in botany which will allow me to discuss issues related to ginseng genetics authoritatively. Is there anyone here who can help get me pointed in the right direction? Research projects or books I can look into? Anything?

Brad, That's an interesting question.

I've read about genetic markers but then some of the older generations of people use to tend their woodland ginseng like a fall crop planting the berries back. I've seen really old adds selling ginseng seed out of Wisconsin to the public. So how is it possible to say after all these generations what is what?

I agree, I have seen lots of those old adds as well from the late 1800's and early 1900's. I truly believe that some of what we call wild today are truly from offspring from seeds planted generations ago from seed purchased from commercial growers such as in Wisconsin.

On the other hand, there is no doubt that some of the wild ginseng we find today is from truly wild ginseng.

Perhaps they have even crossbred over the decades and centuries. I do not know the power of genetics verses the conditions and area the seed is planted or grown in.

However, I do know this. Seed obtained in Tennessee will grow better in Tennessee than if planted in Ohio. Seed from Ohio will grow better in Ohio than seed from North Carolina and so on and so on.

Even members on Wildgrown.com have stated that their native plants sprout the plant tops, form berries and turn yellow and wilt for the season at different times of the year verses their roots or seed planted from a different state. This alone proves that Genetic memory has a big part in the plants ability to adapt or adjust or stay true to it's own internal genetic clock even thou it is growing in a different climate.

Plant a pound of seed from WI in Southern Ohio and not as much of it will survive as if you plant Southern Ohio seed in Southern Ohio. Yes some of the WI seed will survive tho when planted in southern states.

So I am not recommending we get to focused on seed source but seed purchased as close to the area to be planted is best. I have experienced this personally.

Genetics are definitely interesting tho and a great topic BCastle. I am no expert but I do believe I can differentiate the difference when looking at a NY ginseng Plant Picture from Kentucky Ginseng pictures.

Same plant species but they look totally different. Plant leaves are shaped differently. Leaf spacing is different. Berry Pod stem is shorter verses taller. Color can vary from Lime green to dark green etc etc.

So genetics are certainly interesting to say the least. Would love to hear someone elaborate if they have interesting information to share.
Thanks,
Latt

Latt wrote:

I agree, I have seen lots of those old adds as well from the late 1800's and early 1900's. I truly believe that some of what we call wild today are truly from offspring from seeds planted generations ago from seed purchased from commercial growers such as in Wisconsin.

On the other hand, there is no doubt that some of the wild ginseng we find today is from truly wild ginseng.

Perhaps they have even crossbred over the decades and centuries. I do not know the power of genetics verses the conditions and area the seed is planted or grown in.

However, I do know this. Seed obtained in Tennessee will grow better in Tennessee than if planted in Ohio. Seed from Ohio will grow better in Ohio than seed from North Carolina and so on and so on.

Even members on Wildgrown.com have stated that their native plants sprout the plant tops, form berries and turn yellow and wilt for the season at different times of the year verses their roots or seed planted from a different state. This alone proves that Genetic memory has a big part in the plants ability to adapt or adjust or stay true to it's own internal genetic clock even thou it is growing in a different climate.

Plant a pound of seed from WI in Southern Ohio and not as much of it will survive as if you plant Southern Ohio seed in Southern Ohio. Yes some of the WI seed will survive tho when planted in southern states.

So I am not recommending we get to focused on seed source but seed purchased as close to the area to be planted is best. I have experienced this personally.

Genetics are definitely interesting tho and a great topic BCastle. I am no expert but I do believe I can differentiate the difference when looking at a NY ginseng Plant Picture from Kentucky Ginseng pictures.

Same plant species but they look totally different. Plant leaves are shaped differently. Leaf spacing is different. Berry Pod stem is shorter verses taller. Color can vary from Lime green to dark green etc etc.

So genetics are certainly interesting to say the least. Would love to hear someone elaborate if they have interesting information to share.
Thanks,
Latt

Latt,

What you explain and what has actually occurred with these plants is called Epigenetics - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epigenetics ! God is his' infinite wisdom has given plants and even animals the ability to adapt (epigenesis) without changing their' main DNA sequences or markers. Therefore, it has been and still is my belief that all North American Wild-Simulated and Woodsgrown Ginseng originally came from true Wild North American Ginseng stock and that they still retain the DNA identity markers that can prove this. Their ability to survive when roots or seeds are planted in locations different from which they were have grown for 20, 50 or even 100 years, depends upon a lot of factors but the main factors are the inherited/adapted traits that they obtained from their ancestors. Sure seeds from Tennessee planted in Tennessee have a much greater chance at survival than seeds from Tennessee planted in Ohio. However, seeds from Ohio have a much better chance at survival if planted in Tennessee than in Ontario or possibly even New York. While there are many, many more factors involved in their ability to adapt (epigenesis) to survive, one of the main factors is climate/environment. Some argue that Epigentics is evolution while others do not consider it evolution but consider it a built in and inheritable adaptability to survive within their' genome. Since I do not believe in the theory of evolution (and I will not get into a debate on this subject), I believe in the latter.


Frank

I did a little more reading on genetic markers and found out the less I know.

To put things in layman terms from my point of view is this.
Isolated plots will be inbreeding from parent stock and sister plants and so on retaining markers from the type soil, elevation and climate. Now a mile away another plot may have a different soil and elevation and even temperature change somewhat, sun light, shade, what side of the mountain and so on. Now if these two plots cross pollinate then they call it outcrossing and have dna of both.

I really don't see if even matters as long as the seng has the strength and characteristics it needs.

*nod* that is sort of where I'm at on this too. However, whenever one wishes to engage in dialogue, we must first completely understand the other sides. Rather than dismiss the issue of genetics, I want to first understand the concepts and then when the time comes for discussion, I'll have a basis of understanding from which to chose a proper position based on all the facts and information I've gathered.

I think everyone should approach the issues with the ginseng programs this way. Lets first understand why they are the way they are, then we will determine if anything needs to change, and if so, how it might be changed for the better.

My weakness in this debate currently is ginseng genetics. However, by the time we sit down with the powers that be, I plan to have that rectified. This is why I'm asking for help. Those who hold differing positions than the one I currently hold, are in the best position to show me (teach me if you will) what I may be missing. They hold their positions for a reason based on the info they have. Reasonable people can and do disagree, and that does not necessarily make one right and the other wrong. Just different based on any number of factors.

Rootman, my argument has always been similar to what you have learned. Ginseng is basically asexual, and therefore needs no companion plants to reproduce. And, when we find them in patches, they are normally decedents of the same plant or plants -however that plant came to be where it is. (this is another issue in my mind...who is to say the genetics which are considered wild and native today were not transplanted from many miles away 50 or 100 years ago?) Therefore, this particular strain of plants may have adapted to the immediate surroundings (micro climate)and as a result carry unique genetics. But, my current thinking suggests, how does that mean planting seeds from a different area harm the existing strains in a negative manner? I understand that the genetics are shared when there is crossbreeding, but why is this necessarily a bad thing? And, if it is a bad thing for the native strains, wouldn't it be equally beneficial for the new coming strain?

Like I said, I need to understand this stuff better before I take a solid position.

In Nature cross breeding typically reduces the possibility of deformities, abnormalities and weaknesses in plants and animals. On the other hand I am sure isolated stands of seng are abundant and may have never been crossbred and seem very strong, healthy and resilient.
Who really knows??? The more I learn the less I know.
Latt

Latt wrote:

Who really knows??? The more I learn the less I know.
Latt

Latt, I'm right there with you some days. That is one of the reasons I think education must be one of the highest priorities for any organization we field.

I have a degree in molecular biology, not precisely genetics, but I did take a couple genetics courses on my way to my degree.

Most studies I've read on ginseng related to it's \"medical uses\" not to it's genetics. Any particular info you're looking for? Are you interesting is creating your own ginseng varieties? Trying to do anything to ginseng in a natural setting outside the lab would be a bit slow and take some dedication due to it's slow reproductive rate. For instance TACF is attempting to breed a fully resistant American Chestnut tree and has been working on it for 30 years and they think, but aren't sure yet, they may have a fully resistant tree. Though a group working in a lab thinks they may have done it in less than a decade. The next few years will tell, but either way working with slowly reproducing plants can take a lot of patience.

Ittiz,

No, I'm not interested in creating varieties (certainly not at this point anyway) but I am interested in understanding the argument against bringing in commercially produced seed based on genetics.

As I said earlier, I understand that plants born of cultivated seed could cross with native plants resulting in a f1 hybrid of sorts ...still American Ginseng though. That is the extent of the argument I understand. That introduction of seed from other sources may dilute the gene pool of the native plants (assuming they really are native in the first place).

I just am not really sure where the harm is in this case lacking some trait that is completely harmful to the plant's survival.

I have only been able to find the same sort of studies you mention in my college library. Mostly having to do with medical benefits or harm from the use of ginseng for certain things. Very little on growing the stuff, or increasing its numbers in the wild.