TOPIC: Wild or Wild Simulated?

Classicfur,

You should try it out in a test plot before you make up your mind.

I have read a bunch of different articles online (many before I found this site) and I do remember one grower who mentioned the till 2\" deep, plant 1\" deep method.

They said the stats were better on early years survival rates (specifically because the root grew longer, deeper, larger the first year) and in the end no noticable difference in root characteristics.

When I get a chance I will see if I can relocate that article and post a link to it here. It has probably been about a year or 8 months since I read that, no idea exactly where it was now. As you know the web deep when it comes to the info available.

PS - looks like I may not get to test out that \"broadcast\" method this year. My dealer can't get any of that cheap seed (30.00/lb) this year because of the shortage up in Wisonsin.
If I were going to try that our leaves are starting to fall heavy now, and rain forcast for early next week. Timing like that is when I would give that a try. Ideally you would broadcast them just hours before a heavy rain then that makes the leaves fall like crazy and cover them quickly - which would help minimize critters finding them and eating them. In Scotts book they mentioned a 65% germination rate on that, but it was not in TN which could make a difference.

May have to wait until next year to try that out.

I am going to try some plantings with rake back, scratch up, scatter and cover (like you are doing), but I am also going to try the rake back, trench 1-2 inch deep, cover methods too and will vary the amount that I work those trenches up to see if I can tell any difference in survival rates, root characteristics after a year or two.

Thanks

TNhunter

TNhunter

I would be willing to try that next year since all my planting is done for now. W e have had about 2 1/2\" of rain since I planted and the leaves are about 90% down.

I have fear about planting 1\" deep where I live. Since we get about 8-10 feet of snow and the snow is packed on the gardens for 5-5 1/2 months. My soil seems to get pretty packed down during that time. Also leaf fall is usually about 3\" deep(fluffy leaves) on top of the old leaves that are 1\" compressed. Some areas I have to rake leaves off the beds in the spring so the first and second year plants can make it through the leaves. I can see planting 1/2\"-3/4\" deep in the soil.

I don't know if that would raise my success rate any. I still have over 75% still standing after planting four yrs in Maine. But I would like to see what the article says.

On the broadcast method. That was done is Western Wisconsin which is dominantly Sugar Maples. Probably alot like where I live. I figure My trees are about 75-80% sugar maples. I think that if you have alot of leaf fall you may have good chance at this method. If you end up with bare spots whith no cover the seeds won't make it.

I tried the trench method a little and got frustrated because my soil had too many fine roots and rocks(small and large). So I have stuck with the method that Scott describes in detail in his book.

Here is a picture of one of the beds I just planted with all the leave fallen.

Thanks for your comments.

classicfur

Classicfur,

You are way ahead of us on leaf fall and that sure is a nice carpet of sugar maple leaves.

I have 3 sugar maples in my yard (transplanted from the woods on my land) and my mom has a yard full of 55 year old sugar maples (talk about pouring down the leaves) - I know I rake and blow them off every year.

On that 3rd method mentioned here on the wildgrown site under planting methods for wild simulated - (listing it below):

===
Method #3
Rake, Scratch and use a Mechanical Seeder

When you start trying to plant larger quantities of seed, you begin to want a more efficient way of planting. Our solution was to rake the leaves back, scratch 3 rows about a foot apart, and use a mechanical seeder to drop the seed in the slightly loose dirt.

The plates have to be worked with until you get a good seed distribution. The problem is that the root system in the ground makes it difficult to use the seeder without working up a row in the dirt first. This would seem to defeat the purpose of a wild simulated planting, but it does not. The ground is not tilled, but rather scratched up for an inch or two deep, enough for the seeder to get the seed into the ground and cover it with dirt before raking the leaves back over them.

The advantage of this system is speed. A two-man team can plant a half-acre in a day without much problem, and two acres in a week.
===

It mentions the roots in the soil issue (and I have already experienced that with a small place or two I have already planted this week) but it also mentions breaking up the soil 1-2\" deep before using a mechanical seeder.

I used to have a big old garden tiller 8 hp and it had a way to control the depth. You could set it so it only broke up 2\" deep for example - easily. I no longer have that tiller but have considerd buying a new one, something smaller. I actually have a guy that comes and breaks my garden now with tractor so all I really need is a small cultivator type tiller.

Check out the youtub vid on the mantis tiller. I have seen them advertised on TV many times but never thought seriously about buying one.

Watch the vid until it shows the part about how tough they are, it is actually chewing up a piece of plywood in the demo part.

It also had a edger attachment.



It would sure be light enough to tote out in the woods and do some work with, sounds like roots would not be such a problem for it (if it can chew up plywood) and if you could control the depth of the cultivation (say 1-2\") that might do nicely.

You could rake back the leaves, then work up 1-2\" in small rows with that thing, then plant with a mechanical planter.

I also wonder how that edger attachment might work at making 1-2\" deep furrows for ginseng seed.

Like the article mentioned - when you get to the pont that you are getting serious and wanting to plant a few acres, something like that may be needed.

TNhunter

Guys

Every holler that I have planted with wild seed through the years has now got more ginseng than it had when I first found and dug in it ( all except the hollers that others found and messed up by over digging of course )

But all of the areas that I have planted 1 inch deep and that no one has bothered have always came up out standing.

My planting exsperience has not been from reading but from planting and I assure you that 1 inch is a solid way to have production.

I believe that it gives (as Tnhunter exspressed) the seeds that make it greater strength and makes them stronger.

Again that is with completly wild seed.

My exsperience is not with stratified seed,but I planted sevral thousand stratified for the first time this season 1 inch deep with the same procedure that I have always used with wild seed.If they do not come up and do well then I will discontinue my reserch with them,but if they do well I will let you guys know that also.

Billy.

This is my first year dealing with stratified seeds, so I'm not sure what method works best. I'm like Billy. I've only planted wild seed in the past. When planting wild seed, I can hear my grandfather saying to me repeatedly, \"Don't plant them deep.\" I have used two methods when planting what I consider shallow. One is I take my digger and scratch a long trench just deep enough for the seed to sit in then cover them over. I've also taken my digger and poked it in the ground and made about a half inch hole and planted that way. I've been successful in both cases.

Jacquo,

Your Grandfather advising you - don't plant too deep - may be like the State of KY's law recommending that you should plant the berries (with nothing but the finger for planting tool).

If our buddy Billy up there in KY planted a couple of pounds of stratified seed with nothing but his finger, he would sure have some raw fingers and dirty/broken nails for sure. If he planted them that 1\" deep that he likes to do and has had good success with, wow - that would be dang near impossible.

There are all kinds of opinions out there on planting depth on ginseng seed. If you go over to the harding site, they recommend 1.5\" deep, but then other \"experts\" recommend 1/4\" deep.

There is probably no perfect planting depth for everyone in every soil type.

We have some areas around here that have deep loose loam type soil with lots of organic matter and I am sure in soil like that 2\" would work Ok. But then we have some areas where the soil is heavy clay and man that stuff sits up like concrete and I expect if you planted them 1\" deep the sprout may not be able to force it's way thru. Then we have those areas around bluffs and rock outcropings where the soil is just full of those flakey rock chips and even though rocky the soil always seems to be loose so I expect 1\" or 3/4\" would work fine there.

It is probably just one of those things that each individual grower will have to use his best judgement on, study the soil characteristics of each site you are planting and plant accordingly.

As far as exactly how to plant them. I have some remote areas where I will be walking in with nothing but my seng digger & seed and will plant seeds in individual holes in some places, but in others will make shallow trenches 1/2 to 1\" deep and drop in seed about 6\" apart, cover and mulch.

Then I have 200 acres of land that I own (apart from the 30 acres my house is on). That place has some north/east hillsides that are 200-300 yards long. That is where I am considering different methods, like raking back a 5\" wide strip of leaves in a long strip up the hill, working up 3 rows in that 5\" strip, furrow, drop seeds 6\" apart, cover & walk down that furrow to make sure seeds have good contact with soil, then rake leaves back over.

When I start thinking about taking a grubbing hoe and making 3 - 200 yard long furrows - I start thinking I really don't want to do that. That is where I am thinking someting like that little mantis tiller would be nice to work up the soil 1-2\" deep in those 3 rows down the 5\" wide strip, then I could roll down each of those rows with a mechanical planter putting the seeds down every 6\" or so.

Now that would sure be a much more efficient way to get the seed out and get a lot of land planted.

I don't think it really matters what you do the cultivation with, finger, seng digger, grub hoe, or even a gas powered tiller, as long as you don't cultivate more than 1-2\" deep in the end you will have wild looking roots.

A mature root the bud spur will be (on average) around 1\" deep, then you have the root neck, then root. When you count all of that up, the large majority of the root in the end is going to be down below your initial cultivation range even if you do go up to 2\" deep.

Some advantages to having those roots down deeper in the soil would be better survival rates during periods of drought, and in cases of forest fire. Also top size is related to root size and if you can get larger/longer roots the first year the tops will grow accordingly. I do remember reading that plants with larger tops have a higher success rate compared to those with smaler tops those first few critical years.

TNhunter

Billy

I believe that your method works great for you and in your area. Especially for berries that must keep from drying out for 19+ months before they germinate compared to stratified seeds only 7+ months.

I also appreciate that you are saying this from your personal experience.

I have been planting my Stratified seeds using Scott Persons favorite method of rakeing, scratching surface of soil, planting seeds, walking over the soil then raking the leaves back over the bed. I have had great success with this method eve thought the seed end up a ? - 1/2? deep in the soil. And Scotts method came from 30+ years of his personal experience of growing Ginseng.

Billy you said: ?My planting experience has not been from reading but from planting and I assure you that 1 inch is a solid way to have production.?

And I believe you to be right!

But, what does it matter if I use somebodies ?tried and true? method that came from their 30+ years of experience written on pages of a book or your ?tried and true? methods that came from your many years of experience written on the pages of this post? I believe both methods are good. I believe there is more than one way to have success growing seng. And it all comes down to what works best for you in your area.

I appreciate What Scott says about different methods. Try different methods and see what works best in your area. Point being, what works well in KY may not work well in ME, and what works well in IL may not work well in WV.

I have used Scotts method for 6 years and have had Great success with it. And I have over 45,000 plants. That?s not an accident.

Please don?t take it the wrong way, but there are many ways to success in growing ginseng whether it is your exsperience or someone elses.

classicfur

classicfur wrote:

Billy

I believe that your method works great for you and in your area. Especially for berries that must keep from drying out for 19+ months before they germinate compared to stratified seeds only 7+ months.

I also appreciate that you are saying this from your personal experience.

I have been planting my Stratified seeds using Scott Persons favorite method of rakeing, scratching surface of soil, planting seeds, walking over the soil then raking the leaves back over the bed. I have had great success with this method eve thought the seed end up a ? - 1/2? deep in the soil. And Scotts method came from 30+ years of his personal experience of growing Ginseng.

Billy you said: ?My planting experience has not been from reading but from planting and I assure you that 1 inch is a solid way to have production.?

And I believe you to be right!

But, what does it matter if I use somebodies ?tried and true? method that came from their 30+ years of experience written on pages of a book or your ?tried and true? methods that came from your many years of experience written on the pages of this post? I believe both methods are good. I believe there is more than one way to have success growing seng. And it all comes down to what works best for you in your area.

I appreciate What Scott says about different methods. Try different methods and see what works best in your area. Point being, what works well in KY may not work well in ME, and what works well in IL may not work well in WV.

I have used Scotts method for 6 years and have had Great success with it. And I have over 45,000 plants. That?s not an accident.

Please don?t take it the wrong way, but there are many ways to success in growing ginseng whether it is your exsperience or someone elses.

classicfur

classicfur,

It may be that you missunderstood me.

It does not matter to me how deep or by what method you plant your seeds at all.Or by whose method you do it Scotts or your own.Also there is nothing wrong with reading a book and I did not say anything to lead you to think that there was not anything to appreciate in Scotts book.

You said,
Please don?t take it the wrong way, but there are many ways to success in growing ginseng whether it is your exsperience or someone elses,

Again I never said any thing to make you think that others exsperience was not useful,or that it was all about a personal idea.

All I stated was what I know to work well here where I am from and what I ment from ( My planting experience has not been from reading but from planting and I assure you that 1 inch is a solid way to have production )

Was just that,It works very well here.

I didnt mean for you to think that I was downing your method or Scotts book.I do not down no one for any thing they do or try.

I hope that you may raise 50,000 plants to big mature roots and prosper over and over and not by accident at all,but by hard work and dedication.

classicfur wrote:

Billy

I believe that your method works great for you and in your area. Especially for berries that must keep from drying out for 19+ months before they germinate compared to stratified seeds only 7+ months.

I also appreciate that you are saying this from your personal experience.

I have been planting my Stratified seeds using Scott Persons favorite method of rakeing, scratching surface of soil, planting seeds, walking over the soil then raking the leaves back over the bed. I have had great success with this method eve thought the seed end up a ? - 1/2? deep in the soil. And Scotts method came from 30+ years of his personal experience of growing Ginseng.

Billy you said: ?My planting experience has not been from reading but from planting and I assure you that 1 inch is a solid way to have production.?

And I believe you to be right!

But, what does it matter if I use somebodies ?tried and true? method that came from their 30+ years of experience written on pages of a book or your ?tried and true? methods that came from your many years of experience written on the pages of this post? I believe both methods are good. I believe there is more than one way to have success growing seng. And it all comes down to what works best for you in your area.

I appreciate What Scott says about different methods. Try different methods and see what works best in your area. Point being, what works well in KY may not work well in ME, and what works well in IL may not work well in WV.

I have used Scotts method for 6 years and have had Great success with it. And I have over 45,000 plants. That?s not an accident.

Please don?t take it the wrong way, but there are many ways to success in growing ginseng whether it is your exsperience or someone elses.

classicfur

TNhunter

I'm confused with Hardings seed planting depth. On their website thet say to cover with 1.5\" of soil. But the brochure I recieved from them earlier this year says to plant seeds 1/4-1/2\" deep and plant rootlets 1 1/2\" deep. ????

Here's someting I found online.

Research has indicated that seeds should be planted at a depth of one inch for maximum germination and establishment. While it is rarely necessary to be exact in this regard, you should nevertheless be careful not to plant too shallow or too deep as there are consequences to both. Too shallow and one risks having seeds dry out or be eaten by birds or animals; plant seed too deep, on the other hand, and the seedlings will have a difficult time emerging.

Billy

I apologize for the mis-understanding:)

classicfur