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Post your experiences, questions and answers about growing wild-simulated ginseng

TOPIC: Virgin grower growing

Re:Virgin grower growing 11 years 5 months ago #22890

Ittiz wrote:

I've read studies that show it increases root weight, which would probably be the reason. Since commercial ginseng cost is near production cost ever little addition to root weight they can get is important.

If I were them I think I might sacrifice root weight a little bit though, since the seed produced by a plant can be worth more than it's roots over a few years.


You are probably right about the reasoning! Although I am against doing such, I am familiar with this technique and what it can do for plants to be harvested. However, for this technique to work right, the buds must be pinched out (removed) from the plant before the blooms go to seed. This technique has it's benefits and detriments as well, as it will not only increase the size and weight of the Ginseng root and plant but it will also somewhat change the appearance of the roots and the structure of the root cells and fibers as well as the taste. It is similar to castrating a Bull and creating a Steer! Maybe these changes to the root are the major reasons that cultivated Ginseng brings less money on the Ginseng market more than just the appearance itself!


Frank

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Re:Virgin grower growing 11 years 5 months ago #22891

Hey Frank,

Well, there are reasons for everything and as part-time growers we won't notice some of the things the commercial guys take for granted as must do. Most generally, commercially raised ginseng will be seedlings as we are familiar the first year. Then, the second year will show up as mostly 2 prongs. The third year, the grow as three prongs and produce full seed heads. The fourth year they are four prongs and normally the flower stems are picked to enhance root growth before they are harvested in the fall.

Ittiz is correct, the energy of the plant that normally goes into producing seed will be diverted to root growth if the flower stem is removed. Monetarity, though, the trade off is about even. The difference is when you look at timing and potential. The increase in size will normally offset the sale of the seeds that would have been produced that final year. But, that does not take into account a premium price a grower may get for having exceptionally nice roots. The other big aspect is the time and labor requirements to harvest the seed. In a larger operation, the timing of labor activities is critical going into the harvest season. When a grower has say 5 acres (smaller than most) of turn over (plants and harvests 5 acres a year), the 3 year old garden will produce more than enough seed to plant another five acres if growing conditions for the seed are normal. This is the issue we will see in this fall's seed shortage. However, if one looks at the timing of these operations, it becomes clear that this is the way to go. Flower heads can be picked now. Berries are picked late July early August and seed depulped, treated, mixed with sand and placed into storage. And then, it becomes time to harvest.

So, if you can harvest more than enough seed to plant what you need the next fall from the 3s, why not pick the flowers from the 4s and gain root growth? Also, it spreads out the labor requirements into managable rates throughout the summer rather than having to harvest and deal with twice the seed one needs to supply his or her needs.

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Re:Virgin grower growing 11 years 5 months ago #22892

BCastle,

Thanks for the excellent write up on Commercial Growers of Ginseng and what they do! While I do not agree with it, I can somewhat understand their reasoning. Does that mean they are correct in their reasoning? Does it matter what I believe, no, as they can tell me to kiss off as it is their' business! As I previously stated, castrating a Ginseng plant by removing the buds before they bloom has similar effects as castrating a Bull to create a Steer. However, while both create a larger, heavier product with tighter cells and fibers, I believe the similarities end there. While a Steer's meat becomes mostly devoid of fat and the taste generally improves, I doubt the same can be said for Ginseng plants and roots. This technique may harm the production of ginsenosides and polysaccharide glycans (quinquefolans A, B, and C) in the plant and probably harms the taste and appearance which are unique to Ginseng, especially Wild Ginseng. I wonder if anyone has taken the time to do a study on the levels of ginsenosides and polysaccharide glycans (quinquefolans A, B, and C) and the taste on both normal and castrated Ginseng plants and their' roots??!! These factors more so than the appearance of cultivated Ginseng, may be the main reasoning of why that Cultivated Ginseng brings much, much less on the Ginseng markets!

I will make one more point then I will digress on this topic and get back to the O.P's original posting, if help, advice or information is needed. As far as labor activities and concerns for both harvesting the Ginseng seeds, plants and roots commercially are concerned. These can be done almost simultaneously! Workers can quickly move through a field removing Ginseng tops with berry (seed) pods intact by cutting them several inches from the ground and placing them into large tubs loaded on agricultural trailers. The tops and berries to be separated later. A worker or two goes back through and picks up any berries that fell onto the ground before or during the removal of the tops and places them in the same tubs. (However, if a cloth or clothlike material is placed on both sides of the plants prior to berry ripening, this would aid in the capture and limit the loss of any berries that may prematurely fall off prior to top and seed/berry harvesting.) Next (I would imagine that the Commercial Growers have tractors with extractors for the roots but if not), a tractor (the driver making sure not to get off course and damage the roots) turns (plows) up the soil in the rows which exposes the roots, making them easier to extract (harvest). The workers come back through and remove the roots and also load them in tubs on agricultural trailers. The harvest is done, now the separating, washing, drying and other processes begins! It sure seems much simpler than when I helped plant beds, plowed...disked and fertilized the fields, planted the plants, plowed and hoed the fields, removed suckers and Cut Worms, sprayed the plants, hoed around the plants again, removed the tops (blooms) and sprayed again, cut and speared the plants, removed speared plants from the fields and moved them to the barn, dried (cured), removed the cured leaves from the plants and graded the leaves from the plants harvested from 14 acres of Tobacco grown each year when I was 16 to 18 years old (oh and I left out a few times of hoeing)! Most of the plowing was done with a Work Horse named Bell as using a tractor after planting was not feasible and besides, the owner of the largest portion of the fields (about 11 acres), was too cheap to provide gasoline and oil for the tractor he owned.

While some may feel differently, please understand that I did not write this long winded post to be a smart-A&$ but wrote it to make a point!


Frank

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Re:Virgin grower growing 11 years 5 months ago #22898

Looks like some of my 2 year olds are going to produce seed:)
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Re:Virgin grower growing 11 years 5 months ago #22899

At the risk of being considered a sarcastic guy... \"castration\" is not the same as \"bud removal\"...

I think the analogy is perhaps too general to make, lean beef that is better tasting --to the effect on the ginsenosides and polysaccharide glycans (quinquefolans A, B, and C).

I think that the natural seed predators have affected the wild-grown plants as well. Deer, Turkey, mice and voles... to name a few. Do we think these natural seed eaters don't cause the plant to react?

I wonder if you had a couple cups of coffee before you wrote this? Maybe expresso? Wait... I am a sarcastic guy... opps I forgot... LOL

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Re:Virgin grower growing 11 years 5 months ago #22904

Whitjr wrote:

At the risk of being considered a sarcastic guy... \"castration\" is not the same as \"bud removal\"...

I think the analogy is perhaps too general to make, lean beef that is better tasting --to the effect on the ginsenosides and polysaccharide glycans (quinquefolans A, B, and C).

I think that the natural seed predators have affected the wild-grown plants as well. Deer, Turkey, mice and voles... to name a few. Do we think these natural seed eaters don't cause the plant to react?

I wonder if you had a couple cups of coffee before you wrote this? Maybe expresso? Wait... I am a sarcastic guy... opps I forgot... LOL


HA...HA...HA! Kudos for the Sarcastic Guy!

In the future, don't piss and moan over the price increase of Ginseng seed because the Cultivators decided to remove the buds on their' 4 pronged plants and their' 3 prong and 2 prong plants did not produce enough seed to meet the demand. When many folks are trying to obtain as many seeds that they can afford in order to have a future income and save North American Ginseng in the process, thousands upon thousands of seeds are virtually being destroyed. That makes me sick!


Frank

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Re:Virgin grower growing 11 years 5 months ago #22906

BigRoots wrote:

Looks like some of my 2 year olds are going to produce seed:)


BigRoots,

That is a healthy and fine looking Two Prong! I hope the rest of your' Two Prongers are just as nice!


Frank

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Re:Virgin grower growing 11 years 5 months ago #22908

huntsman53 wrote:

Whitjr wrote:

At the risk of being considered a sarcastic guy... \"castration\" is not the same as \"bud removal\"...

I think the analogy is perhaps too general to make, lean beef that is better tasting --to the effect on the ginsenosides and polysaccharide glycans (quinquefolans A, B, and C).

I think that the natural seed predators have affected the wild-grown plants as well. Deer, Turkey, mice and voles... to name a few. Do we think these natural seed eaters don't cause the plant to react?

I wonder if you had a couple cups of coffee before you wrote this? Maybe expresso? Wait... I am a sarcastic guy... opps I forgot... LOL


HA...HA...HA! Kudos for the Sarcastic Guy!

In the future, don't piss and moan over the price increase of Ginseng seed because the Cultivators decided to remove the buds on their' 4 pronged plants and their' 3 prong and 2 prong plants did not produce enough seed to meet the demand. When many folks are trying to obtain as many seeds that they can afford in order to have a future income and save North American Ginseng in the process, thousands upon thousands of seeds are virtually being destroyed. That makes me sick!


Frank


Well, in addition to the economic and administrative issues of which I wrote above, also realize that in normal years, the seeds harvested from the 3year gardens are more than enough to satisfy the demand for seed. They produce seed for themselves and other commercial growers (remember they plant about 80 pounds/acre) and the seed left over is what is available to the non-commercial market through dealers.

Seed will be short this year because of a continuing increase in demand, and most of all, the effects of the drought last summer. Most gardens were producing only about 50% or so what they normally would have produced.

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Re:Virgin grower growing 11 years 5 months ago #22914

This is actually a subject I have been debating the past couple weeks... Seed or weight? I believe as long as the soil isn't tilled and loose the root will still look wild as even with abundant nutrition and energy it has to squeeze and push itself downward through the tight soil creating the desired look. I have chemically removed the flower heads from 20% and left the rest (doing it one by one, by hand, takes too long). At the end of the year, I'll dig several and see how it worked out either way.

Hillhopper

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Re:Virgin grower growing 11 years 5 months ago #22916

Hillhopper wrote:

This is actually a subject I have been debating the past couple weeks... Seed or weight? I believe as long as the soil isn't tilled and loose the root will still look wild as even with abundant nutrition and energy it has to squeeze and push itself downward through the tight soil creating the desired look. I have chemically removed the flower heads from 20% and left the rest (doing it one by one, by hand, takes too long). At the end of the year, I'll dig several and see how it worked out either way.

Hillhopper



I understand what you are thinking Hill. The only issue I have is that there are times when I find wild ginseng growing in ground so loose that I don't need a digging tool to get it out, sometimes rotted wood or peat like material, and they still look completely wild and gnarly.

I suspect it is the fertilizer more than anything else which causes the characteristic look of cultivated ginseng. While I've not yet (thinking about it this fall) tried growing ginseng with fertilizer and the whole shebang to see the difference, I highly doubt that plucking the flower stems will make a drastic difference in appearance -but I can certainly be wrong.

Looking at the Ontario Production Recommendations for Ginseng, I see they quote a 25-30% increase in root growth if the plants are deflowered when they first start to elongate. That is a considerable amount and it might well add to the smoother appearance of the cultivated roots. Of course, there is a trade-off between selling seed and selling more root weight, and the better course of action will depend on the market conditions for both. The rub is that deflowering would have already taken place by now (early June) and the market for seed could drastically change by fall.

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