TOPIC: Storing dried roots for another year

The roots first have to be certified by the Mississippi Department of Agriculture before leaving Mississippi. After that they'll have to be certified again by the Alabama Department of Agriculture. After this they can be sold to an Alabama dealer. I actually had to purchase an Alabama collectors permit to harvest ginseng in Mississippi. I'm actually trying to convince the State to establish a ginseng program here, but there's not much interest from the state government in undertaking the endeavor. I think it's ridiculous that someone can legally dig it in the Spring of the year here!

BCastle wrote:

\"there is another 3 hours of paperwork just for the 1/2 lb from the year before going with it. For this reason, it will likely be bought at a severe discount if at all.\"

Why should a digger be punished because the buyer has to fill out paperwork?

Unfortunately, BCastle you just kinda shot yourself in the foot. On one hand you argue that Dealers don't make much profit and that most are honest and try to do right by the digger and then you go and make a statement like that one above that totally discredits everything you previously tried to say concerning dealers.

Please understand I am not trying to start anything. I am just an honest person that speaks my mind. I am sure you are an upstanding person. However I will say, (for lack of a better word)it burnt my ass up to read that statement above from you. To me that is a slap in the face to diggers. Say the person that brought the seng in to dealer and it was certified properly. The reason why he didn't get a chance to sell it was because of a death in the family or illness or something and selling it wasn't a priority. You're telling me that you would maybe buy it at a discount \"because you have to fill out paperwork?\"

Again not trying to be mean. But hopefully you can see the poor choice of words you used. And hopefully Dealers might think before they \"hamstring\" a digger just because of paperwork.........

I also had to add. The law requires a digger to certify the seng if they are holding it over to sell the next year (for whatever reason the digger deems). So it is lawful and legal to do so. I would like to see the law or regulations for dealers that allow for the dealer to (for lack of a better word) cheat a digger out of money they earned on account of paperwork.

I will have to say that I would probably be speaking for the majority of diggers that if we go in to a dealer with quality seng that has been properly certified from the previous year, and the going price is $600 a lb dry and I have a lb dry. I better get $600 or the dealer may get a boot in his you know what.

I'm sorry a dealer has to do paperwork. But.........

I also want to add that I am in no way trying to hurt or discredit BCastle. I referenced him because as a dealer he does tend to speak on behalf of dealers as he knows more in that area. I did take him to task on his above quote which I am hoping he made in mistake.

Thank you for your patience and keeping an open mind. I apologize if I offend anyone. I just have to be honest though....

And as Water Cronkite used to say, \"and now for the rest of the story\"! It is not the O.P.'s fault that we did not have this information but if we had had this information, then we would not have posted as we did. I guess that is why we should always keep it simple in respect to responses and not go off into \"The Underdiscovered Country\" like in Star Trek!


Frank


Mississippi wrote:

The roots first have to be certified by the Mississippi Department of Agriculture before leaving Mississippi. After that they'll have to be certified again by the Alabama Department of Agriculture. After this they can be sold to an Alabama dealer. I actually had to purchase an Alabama collectors permit to harvest ginseng in Mississippi. I'm actually trying to convince the State to establish a ginseng program here, but there's not much interest from the state government in undertaking the endeavor. I think it's ridiculous that someone can legally dig it in the Spring of the year here!

CarlM wrote:

BCastle wrote:

\"there is another 3 hours of paperwork just for the 1/2 lb from the year before going with it. For this reason, it will likely be bought at a severe discount if at all.\"

Why should a digger be punished because the buyer has to fill out paperwork?

Who said anything about punishing diggers for buyer's filling out paperwork? There is not only a huge amount of time (time=money...have you heard that before?) involved in the paperwork, but the licenses are also issued by year of harvest and expire at the end of the harvest year. There is a cost involved in obtaining them and when one must go back and apply and pay for an export license for a prior year, that adds costs also. The value of past year's ginseng is therefore less than that of current year regardless of your desire to suggest otherwise.

Unfortunately, BCastle you just kinda shot yourself in the foot. On one hand you argue that Dealers don't make much profit and that most are honest and try to do right by the digger and then you go and make a statement like that one above that totally discredits everything you previously tried to say concerning dealers.

How so Carl? Just because you do not understand all of the ramifications of the things I say or my explanations therefore, does not mean it is anything other than true. ...regardless of what you would hope it might be otherwise.

Please understand I am not trying to start anything.

This is debatable at this point.

I am just an honest person that speaks my mind. I am sure you are an upstanding person. However I will say, (for lack of a better word)it burnt my ass up to read that statement above from you. To me that is a slap in the face to diggers.

Hardly. It is simple economics. If diggers don't want to understand the rational behind the way things work, there is nothing anyone can do or say to help them.

Say the person that brought the seng in to dealer and it was certified properly. The reason why he didn't get a chance to sell it was because of a death in the family or illness or something and selling it wasn't a priority. You're telling me that you would maybe buy it at a discount \"because you have to fill out paperwork?\"

Well, welcome to the big leagues Carl. We don't always get things our own way like when we were kids and got to wear those silly paper crowns at Burger King.

This really is very simple.

Why would you expect me to pay you more for something than it is worth? If I can sell something for $20, why would you expect me to pay you $20 or $25 for that thing? Seriously? It is that simple. If you sell me something I can resell for $20 why would I pay your $18 knowing that I must incur another $5-7 before I can then resell it for $20?

All of those things must be figured in if business person doesn't want to lose money and go out of business. It is just that simple. I really don't know how much clearer I can make it.

Again not trying to be mean. But hopefully you can see the poor choice of words you used. And hopefully Dealers might think before they \"hamstring\" a digger just because of paperwork.........

Carl, I don't know why you think it might, but attacking me for responding honestly to the issue will do NOTHING to increase prices for ginseng this season.

I know, I know, it does become a sort of sport around here to suggest the dealers who speak up are self-centered liars and their only goal in life is to cheat some poor digger who is only making $800/lb on his ginseng...minus the cost of a gallon of gasoline of course. It is also popular to fire away at the administrative folks like KYginseng. If you folks only understood what she and her counter parts to to protect your ability to continue to grow and harvest ginseng...you might have a change of heart.

But, again, just because you might want something to be so, doesn't make it so.

I also had to add. The law requires a digger to certify the seng if they are holding it over to sell the next year (for whatever reason the digger deems). So it is lawful and legal to do so. I would like to see the law or regulations for dealers that allow for the dealer to (for lack of a better word) cheat a digger out of money they earned on account of paperwork.

This is just such an idiotic statement that it warrants no response.

I will have to say that I would probably be speaking for the majority of diggers that if we go in to a dealer with quality seng that has been properly certified from the previous year, and the going price is $600 a lb dry and I have a lb dry. I better get $600 or the dealer may get a boot in his you know what.

So, your suggestion is to resort to violent action to get what you want? I call that a temper tantrum. I've said it over and over again...you cannot make someone buy something they don't want to buy at a price they do not want to pay. Grow up.

I'm sorry a dealer has to do paperwork. But.........

No you arn't. At least be honest here.

I also want to add that I am in no way trying to hurt or discredit BCastle. I referenced him because as a dealer he does tend to speak on behalf of dealers as he knows more in that area. I did take him to task on his above quote which I am hoping he made in mistake.

Thank you for your patience and keeping an open mind. I apologize if I offend anyone. I just have to be honest though....

No mistake. Honest truth. Obviously I have broad shoulders or I would not be vocal on this forum at all. I do NOT speak for dealers as a group. But, as a dealer, I do understand some of the issues which go on behind the scenes to which diggers are not normally privy.

It never ceases to amaze me ... diggers want dealers to talk to them and answer their questions, but when we do you portray us a greedy liars willing to do anything in our power to take away Tiny Tim's Christmas.

THIS...RIGHT HERE...is EXACTLY why diggers do not do well in the administrative realm where the laws and regulations are developed. If you don't understand something, instead of making an issue to learn about it, you attack the person with the opposing position. Why should ANY administrator listen to folks who do this? Seriously? Why??

Carl, I have no issues with you personally. However, don't cast stones when you live in a glass house

BCastle.

I was going to respond in detail to your condescending reply. However, it really isn't worth it. People can read what I wrote and what you wrote and figure out for themselves which position is better conveyed. Bottom line is you made a statement that dealers would either not buy properly certified ginseng or pay a lowball price because of paperwork. That was a poor way to explain your position. Ginseng prices are dictated on a yearly basis by supply and demand. Period. Not by the costs a dealer incurs in his handling and paperwork. I would like to see documentation that backs your claim that a pound of ginseng is worth less if it is certified the previous year. A pound of ginseng is a pound of ginseng. A dealer incurs costs every year to do business. That is the dealers choice if they wish to incur those costs. For you to claim that last years ginseng is severely worth less or worth nothing is ludicrous. If that were the case there would be a notation in the laws stating that ginseng that is dug but not sold, and is certified to be sold the following year, is pretty much worthless and really would be a waste of a diggers hard work. I fully guarantee that every digger on here would want to know that they would get screwed by following the law and certifying their ginseng. By claiming that dealers wouldn't pay or pay very little for last years certified ginseng, you would probably drive diggers to break the law everyone is expect to uphold by not certifying and claiming they dug it the same year they sell it. That seems very strange to me. But hey, You are the expert. I am just a dumb idiot who hasn't been around ginsengers or talked to other dealers in my 42 years on earth. What could I possibly know?

Speaking on the diggers hard work. You stated time is money. You are right. I guarantee that diggers work harder at getting their money than you do yours. You repeatedly in countless posts denigrate the position of the digger as if they just buy a gallon of gas, walk in the woods, pick up the ginseng and deliver to a dealer who then gives the digger the most money while the dealer gets meager scrapings for their work. How insensitive a position. Without the diggers, a dealer has no part in the process.

You are without a doubt one of the most arrogant and condescending people that I have had dealings with. But hey to each his own. Good luck in your dealings. I would hope that you would try to learn to respect the diggers more and to respond to people in a manner less condescending and arrogant. You may find that the conversations are more delightful!!!

Gosh... I sure didn't mean to start all this. I just wanted to know how to store dried roots. Sure hope you guys don't live close to each other

BCastle thanks for letting me know this could be an issue though...

Honestly I already know how much I want for my roots and if I can't get that I just eat them myself

On a brighter note I went hunting in a different place today and dug 20 more plants. No really big ones but they were decent. This spot must've gotten more rain this summer, because the tops were still pretty and green. The berries were good and red too, so they were ready to harvest. Dug two plants that were 30+ years. If I can just get a couple more days like today, I'll have enough to sell and won't have to hold any until next year!

I am glad that in Tennessee, that as diggers, we can choose to hold Ginseng over to the next year and do not have to have it certified! What does it really matter or who even really gives a sh%t when it was dug, it only matters when it was sold and exported out of the State. That is what counts, \"When it leaves the State\"!!!!!!! It sounds like more BS bureaucracy that was only written to charge Ginseng Dealers and probably others more money. If we did have such a stupid damn rule or Law in Tennessee, you really don't want to know what would happen if they tried to come into my' home to check for uncertified Ginseng!


Frank

CarlM wrote:

BCastle.
Bottom line is you made a statement that dealers would either not buy properly certified ginseng or pay a lowball price because of paperwork. That was a poor way to explain your position. Ginseng prices are dictated on a yearly basis by supply and demand. Period. Not by the costs a dealer incurs in his handling and paperwork.

Clearly you have no concept what so ever about running a business. Or, is it just that you are so self-centered and could care less if a dealer goes out of business as long as you make more than he or she does?

Which is really the more condescending position to take Carl?

I would like to see documentation that backs your claim that a pound of ginseng is worth less if it is certified the previous year. A pound of ginseng is a pound of ginseng. A dealer incurs costs every year to do business. That is the dealers choice if they wish to incur those costs. For you to claim that last years ginseng is severely worth less or worth nothing is ludicrous.

No, suggesting that dealers should pay you whatever you want regardless of their costs of doing business is the more ludicrous position.

If that were the case there would be a notation in the laws stating that ginseng that is dug but not sold, and is certified to be sold the following year, is pretty much worthless and really would be a waste of a diggers hard work. I fully guarantee that every digger on here would want to know that they would get screwed by following the law and certifying their ginseng. By claiming that dealers wouldn't pay or pay very little for last years certified ginseng, you would probably drive diggers to break the law everyone is expect to uphold by not certifying and claiming they dug it the same year they sell it. That seems very strange to me. But hey, You are the expert. I am just a dumb idiot who hasn't been around ginsengers or talked to other dealers in my 42 years on earth. What could I possibly know?

It appears you know very little about business or basic economics. The law (in most states anyway) requires certification to keep ginseng from one year to the next. If you do not want to sell that ginseng to a dealer who must pay the additional costs in getting it exported, get the licenses, the permits, and do the work yourself.

Diggers are required by law (as are dealers) to report their activities accurately and truthfully. There is no inducement for anyone to falsify paperwork or lie about their activities. Doing so is a crime. If you do not want to face the fact that dealers must discount their costs of buying root harvested in past years, then sell it at going market in the year it was harvested as the system is designed.

Carl, it is just idiotic to suggest that anyone should pay $18 for, and incur additional $5 in costs, on anything that they can only sell for $20. In this example, anyone with a brain will only pay $13 for the item. Basic, simple economics and common business practice.

Speaking on the diggers hard work. You stated time is money. You are right. I guarantee that diggers work harder at getting their money than you do yours. You repeatedly in countless posts denigrate the position of the digger as if they just buy a gallon of gas, walk in the woods, pick up the ginseng and deliver to a dealer who then gives the digger the most money while the dealer gets meager scrapings for their work. How insensitive a position. Without the diggers, a dealer has no part in the process.

Without the dealer, the digger has no market at all either. Your position is classically psychological cognitive bias. You believe that anything you do is better than that done by anyone else. Anything you own is better than that owned by anyone else. Any work you do is worth more than that done by anyone else. I'm sorry, but that is not always the truth. I stand by my position that next to retail, and likely including retail, the diggers make the most money on a pound of ginseng.

I am not only a dealer, I'm a digger and grower and have been long before buying this stuff.

You are without a doubt one of the most arrogant and condescending people that I have had dealings with. But hey to each his own. Good luck in your dealings. I would hope that you would try to learn to respect the diggers more and to respond to people in a manner less condescending and arrogant. You may find that the conversations are more delightful!!!

Most conversations are. However, do not expect to call someone a liar from your position of inexperience and general naivete and be surprised when they respond appropriately.

Mississippi wrote:

Gosh... I sure didn't mean to start all this. I just wanted to know how to store dried roots. Sure hope you guys don't live close to each other

BCastle thanks for letting me know this could be an issue though...

Honestly I already know how much I want for my roots and if I can't get that I just eat them myself

On a brighter note I went hunting in a different place today and dug 20 more plants. No really big ones but they were decent. This spot must've gotten more rain this summer, because the tops were still pretty and green. The berries were good and red too, so they were ready to harvest. Dug two plants that were 30+ years. If I can just get a couple more days like today, I'll have enough to sell and won't have to hold any until next year!

You are fine Mississippi. You asked a legitimate question and I offered what I believe to be a legitimate issue which you should consider.

It seems to be a standing sport here to bash dealers at every opportunity. Normally I just consider the source and move along. However, this one was way out of line.

huntsman53 wrote:

I am glad that in Tennessee, that as diggers, we can choose to hold Ginseng over to the next year and do not have to have it certified! What does it really matter or who even really gives a sh%t when it was dug, it only matters when it was sold and exported out of the State. That is what counts, \"When it leaves the State\"!!!!!!! It sounds like more BS bureaucracy that was only written to charge Ginseng Dealers and probably others more money. If we did have such a stupid damn rule or Law in Tennessee, you really don't want to know what would happen if they tried to come into my' home to check for uncertified Ginseng!


Frank

Well see Frank, that is really part of the issue. I understand your point completely...and actually sympathize with you.

But, administratively, they base the laws on a number of things including the harvest each year. If you or I or anyone is holding ginseng from one year to the next, the data of ginseng harvested each year is necessarily in error. The fact that they do not know by how much is the issue. The administrative folks at the USF&WS will absolutely err on the side of caution and move to shut down wild harvest if they cannot demonstratively prove that ginseng is not negatively impacted by continued harvest.

You are right, I see nothing that prohibits a digger in TN from holding uncertified root. But, I'm sure that In TN, you are required to report your harvests and the year in which it was harvested. This is a federal requirement forced on the states in order to be able to harvest wild ginseng at all. Misrepresenting root from previous years is not dishonest at best and a code violation at worst.

Another huge issue is the number of paperwork violations and illegal harvesting cases which show up. These go against all of us. We need to comply with the law in order to prove that ginseng is not being harmed by continued harvest.