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TOPIC: How do we stop illegal digging out of season?

Re:How do we stop illegal digging out of season? 2 years 9 months ago #33671

rootman wrote:

knob.
It may have to come to license or permits just like deer hunting where each digger is allowed only so much weight!
I've stated several times about green( fresh sales ) only. This wouldn't be a complete remedy since you can keep it refrigerated for 2 or 3 weeks but it would sure stop the early summer digging.

The above statement is LOUSY in my opinion and honestly only provides positives for licensed buyers.
IF diggers are required to sell green only they can no longer wait on prices to improve the later in the season that it gets which price increases as the season progresses is almost always the case, so by forcing the diggers to sell green they get a lower price than if they were allowed to hold onto it. We as diggers already can't hold onto our ginseng from 1 year to the next unless its certified which in Indiana can only be done by a dealer so we are forced to sell our ginseng every year where as buyers can hold it for as long as they like.
So the dealers could hold prices down during the digging season then once its past hold the ginseng they've bought green and dry it and get a better price resulting in less profits for the digger and greater profits for the dealer.
Then the idea of limiting a digger to a certain amount being dug on a license is ridiculous also as now your saying if you as a digger have woods that can yield 10-20 lbs comfortably every year due to continued re-seeding and proper stewardship they are no longer allowed to harvest it if limited to only 4, 5, 6 etc.... lbs. per license, and if you then allow the purchase of additional weight to the license the good steward is penalized by having to pay more to harvest their root. I'm totally against requiring a private land owner to need a license to harvest the ginseng on their land or on others land they have permission to hunt ginseng on, we've already got enough laws and regulations being shoved down out throats every day. Have the government quit monitoring every email & phone call as being done by them currently and use the money towards putting them in the woods enforcing current laws.
Lousy ideas in my opinion.

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Re:How do we stop illegal digging out of season? 2 years 9 months ago #33672

rootman wrote:

knob.
It may have to come to license or permits just like deer hunting where each digger is allowed only so much weight!
I've stated several times about green( fresh sales ) only. This wouldn't be a complete remedy since you can keep it refrigerated for 2 or 3 weeks but it would sure stop the early summer digging.

By the way from my reading of the news stories about those committing the crimes of early harvest most stories also talk about all the LICENSED DEALERS caught buying root early out of season.
PERHAPS WE NEED FAR GREATER OVERSIGHT ON THE LICENSED BUYERS to end the practice of illegal diggers selling stolen or early harvested ginseng to dealers. I'm sure all you buyers want the government involved even more in your business than they are already right? So if the diggers have to sell green root only and have to be licensed to dig root on private property and then as suggested they have a limit to what they are allowed to dig based on each license I suppose we should then REQUIRE ALL LICENSED BUYERS to have to sell the root they bought as green and limit every dealer license issued to a fixed amount allowed to be bought otherwise the dealer the dealer breaking the law buying out of season gets a free pass on the illegal bought ginseng that was early harvested because if the buyers re allowed to sell dry but not the digger it still leaves the buyers the ability to break the law. How's that sound to you Rootman if your ONLY ALLOWED TO BUY & SELL GREEN AS A LICENSED BUYER??

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Re:How do we stop illegal digging out of season? 2 years 9 months ago #33673

the way i see of cutting down on digging early and small underage roots lies in the dealers the state already know who they are and keeping a eye on them will be easier and cost less than trying to patrol the woods and back roads looking for early diggers cut out the place to sell early and get them to stop buying small and underage roots

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Re:How do we stop illegal digging out of season? 2 years 9 months ago #33674

I've got it, albeit unpopular I'm sure.

Only license landowners.... That cuts out probably almost all early digging poachers. Like I said, its not a perfect world so there isn't a perfect answer but, it would help tremendously.

Hillhopper

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Re:How do we stop illegal digging out of season? 2 years 9 months ago #33675

Hillhopper wrote:

I've got it, albeit unpopular I'm sure.

Only license landowners.... That cuts out probably almost all early digging poachers. Like I said, its not a perfect world so there isn't a perfect answer but, it would help tremendously.

Hillhopper

Bad idea, why should I need a license for my own property and anything that's on it as I own my land and all mineral rights. But if I didn't what about my fathers, uncles, and a couple of long term friends I have that I have permission to harvest on their lands. If only a land owner could be licensed this would rule out my stewarding & harvesting on their land unless I got each to get a license. Then when it was time to sell what do I do arrange for every property owner to go with me to sell it??
Why should I as a property owner need to be licensed, I bought and paid for my land & its contents now your gonna throw more regulations on it and require me to pay for a license?? We aren't talking deer or other animals that go from 1 property to another were talking a plant & root growing on MY LAND.
Give the buyers greater oversight and make the penalties stiffer for them buying illegal root as these minor misdemeanor charges they just shrug off it seems. Then once you've begun weeding out all the buyers buying illegal root then give the good buyers not buying illegal root a REWARD for turning in the names & numbers of the illegal diggers that contact them to sell their illegally dug root such as 50%-100% of the illegal ginseng confiscated at no cost to the dealer for every bust that occurs from their information. That's better than 8in some states where I've heard they actually destroy the illegally harvested root.

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Re:How do we stop illegal digging out of season? 2 years 9 months ago #33676

I don't think any of us is in favor of more Gov. Oversight. It seems at least in Ga. all the illegal root is never seen by a license dealer. Sold early to some rogue or traded for drugs then filtered into the system later in season not much we as dealers can do about that. As for immature roots Ga. has a fine in place of $300 per root if dealer is caught with them my buyer won't buy them either so no incentive for me to buy them. Dishonest people will always make it hard on the rest of us . Only solution is remove the source of illegal profit and make it more profitable to do it the right way. In short if I gave away dog crap at my store limit one pile to customer someone would find a way to get two piles for free. Just the state of the world today and that's sad! I don't want to dictate to my diggers when or how to sell their product , and believe me the gov. Puts enough on dealers on how to sell and when to sell. Good luck to all.

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Re:How do we stop illegal digging out of season? 2 years 9 months ago #33677

I'm just trying to figure out a way to help stop or slow down the illegal digging and selling to rogue buyers.
Isn't it all about trying to protect our ginseng?
Once it's banned then who's to blame, the licensed dealer.

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Re:How do we stop illegal digging out of season? 2 years 9 months ago #33678

knob wrote:

I don't think any of us is in favor of more Gov. Oversight.

Ahhh a voice of reason from someone who's well aware of to much government oversight already on EVERYTHING.
Now I do appreciate the fact that we have some regulation on Ginseng but I wish the everyone understood why there's a season and then because they understood they did the right thing so that we required no regulation. ( Yeah right only in dreamland )
But also why is wild ginseng considered a threatened plant? Its cultivated all over in fields with shade provided, woods cultivated, woods simulated wild & wild.
You take into account all those types they break it down into and you realize the plant ginseng is not threatened. So they then say its the wild that's threatened.
Well I'm sorry I hate to burst everyone's bubble but in my opinion there is VERY little true wild ginseng left if any. Because every time 1 of us takes seed in the woods purchased from dealers, growers etc... we are introducing a cultivated plants seed into the wild ginseng genome that then has wild simulated breeding through pollination with the wild that's there. This seed planting is being done in every state and county by diggers for YEARS ( I planted seed digging with my grandfather he purchased when I was a kid ). So by now virtually every ginseng plant most likely has had contact with plants that originated from cultivated seeds resulting in a dilution of the original genetics. So the \"\"WILD\"\" is actually a cross of cultivated and wild in most all cases. So hardly any of its a original wild genetic strain.
So why can't the 2 styles of cultivated be included in ginsengs total count which would then not make it a threatened plant? If its because its not considered wild then as I said before due to cross pollination all wild should basically be considered wild simulated at best.
I mean come on if we listed every thing that's no longer growing in the wild in large quantities as threatened then shouldn't corn, wheat etc.... all be listed as threatened since I never come across wild corn, soy beans, wheat etc... that isn't present because of previous commercial or private plantings of those crops.
Also in my opinion ginseng should be at most 3 classes
cultivated
cultivated organic
non-cultivated
I think this because if you go out in the woods with me and look at what's out there you can't tell me which plants in my woods are from cultivated seed I've planted and which plants came from a seed that came off a wild plant that I've planted or which seeds escaped my capture and planting itself. You can't do it just like the guy who clears his woods and plants and maintains a wild simulated patch. You going to tell me after 5-10 years that NO wild seeds never hit that property?? I don't think so as the possibility exists so honestly wild simulated & wild are the same things if no other assistance is given other than the planting of the seed. Because you can't consider seed planting to make ginseng wild simulated because due to the law every wild seed found is supposed to be planted back into the same area it came from so all those wild plants were finding a large majority are there because we as diggers plant the wild seed back which would make it wild simulated since we are planting the seed.
There's already so much oversight by the government in ginseng that I feel that it gives the Koreans, Chinese, etc.... greater leverage & control of the pricing. Cause come on if you the digger could legally keep ginseng over from 1 year to the next without requiring certification it would give diggers greater ability to control the market SOME, and what difference does it make in determining the current levels of ginseng in the wild by checking to see harvest weight #'s for each year. If you simply required that at selling time it be certified they get the same total count but it must be averaged out over several years. Cause come on drought years, overly wet years, late frosts, etc... all affect a years total harvest #'s.
Then the Fed's require our buyers that are exporters to purchase a separate export license for each individual years ginseng that the ginseng was harvested from. WHY, is it just to make things more difficult for the USA buyer so they feel they need to move all of this years ginseng this year?? Its not because they don't know how much was harvested.
Also why should the ginseng when exported be required to have the certificates go with it from when it was purchased. Why does the Chinese, Koreans, etc.... have to know which year it was dug?? Its not like they are moving it all to market each year. Look at the big old roots that sit in a shop in China for some ridiculous price so it takes 10-15 years to sell because its priced so high. you think the Chinese have a date of harvest on the roots packaging, I don't think so. So if they can hold it 5-10-15 years with value increasing rather than decreasing then why is our government saddling our buyers with these regulations.
I fully understand we as a society need some regulation and appreciate the fact that there should be a legal digging season for ginseng dug to be sold, but they really need to clean up the mess of regulations in my opinion and concentrate more on penalties and enforcement of those already existing.
Hope everyone understands what I was getting at this post got far longer than I originally intended and as a 2 finger typist my mind minds thoughts quite often can out run the speed my fingers can put it into type so things don't read quite as I meant them to sometimes.

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Re:How do we stop illegal digging out of season? 2 years 9 months ago #33679

rootman wrote:

I'm just trying to figure out a way to help stop or slow down the illegal digging and selling to rogue buyers.
Isn't it all about trying to protect our ginseng?
Once it's banned then who's to blame, the licensed dealer.

Make the penalties harsher. Come on most places its a slap on the wrist almost for breaking the laws regarding ginseng. Then get the prosecutors to actually prosecute. Then get the law enforcement to actually take the time out to come out when we call over ginseng poaching, or theft rather than in most cases never responding to those of us that do call it in.
Getting a sheriffs deputy or Conservation officer to respond to a complaint in timely manner is joke I've found.
But everyone just seems to think its easier to shove more regulation down our throats rather than to enforce existing laws & regulations. I guess its kinda like the immigrant thing huh?? Make up a bunch of laws then don't enforce them and the laws ignored and the problem becomes worse so make up some more laws & regulations and don't bother with any aggressive enforcement and guess what the laws ignored again. Yep sounds just like our immigration system.

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Re:How do we stop illegal digging out of season? 2 years 9 months ago #33680

I was raised in the country and was taught to mind my own business. When I was a kid nobody liked a tattle tale. So for years I just turned my head the other way and I didn't get involved but its gotten to be a serious threat to our lively hood and I have come to believe that is my business these lawbreakers are threatening to destroy and if I don't speak up and turn them in I'm just another part of the bigger problem.
If and when I get calls and or brought larger than normal lots of root that looks or sounds suspicious I will turn it down in a hurry. I don't want to support these hoodlums that buy early or from thieves. I might not agree with every little rule in the book but I'm not above the law either. If I don't like it then I can try to help bring about change.

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